On a related note, I wonder if people around the world are familiar with electric showers. Essentially, it's a resistance similar to the one found in a toaster, placed right inside the showerhead. It heats the water as it flows through. People hearing about it for the first time are usually shocked that we don't die from electrecution.
I was literally shocked at a hostel in Nicaragua because whoever installed the heater didn't ground it. Those electrons wanted that sweet, positively charged earth and I was the fastest way to get there.
I don't know if the circuit was through the running water or if it was the metal tap handles, but it was quite a jolt.
edit: Now that I try to remember it, it was definitely either the tap handle or the metal pipes. ZAP.
Same experience in a Costa Rica hostel! Except in that case my skin just gently tingled where the water touched it. It was a case of, “I know that sensation, and I certainly shouldn’t be feeling it in the shower”
That was one major adjustment when I visited Jordan last year. The electricity was so dirty that my laptop charging was outright buzzing while plugged in. Typing on it was like a gentle massage. Good times lol
Same experience in Turkey a month ago. The exposed wires everywhere in the hotel complex should give me a clue. Also following a smell I ended up in a burned down apartment , not really a surprise given the amount of negligence in everything electrical I've seen there.
I have one of those at home in the UK, in fact I only recently changed the older unit that was getting long in the tooth. The house is old and an electric shower the only way to have a proper shower. I also have a shower extension, a rubber tube with two inputs you connect to the hot and cold taps in the bath tub and which outputs cold water if you hold it lower than the taps and hot water if you keep it above the taps, but never a mix of the two.
For those who don't know, the sinks and bathtubs in UK homes and businesses often have two completely separate taps: one for hot, one for cold. You're supposed to fill the sink with water from both and "wash" your hands (or your dishes) in it. No, you don't rinse them afterwards. It's just soap, it's good for you.
As an aside, I wonder if places like the UK with a lot of antiquated plumbing are responsible for more than their fair share of safecrackers? Every time I see a heist movie with someone crouching, grimly turning a dial an almost imperceptible amount I think back to the last B&B shower cold tap I used. A few degrees turn can often mean a large and uncomfortable temperature change.
Yes. The point is that it's not just soap but soapy water that has just washed off all kinds of gunk and dirt off your hands or dishes. It's a good idea to rinse it off. But, apparently, that's not the done thing in certain sectors of British society, e.g. see:
I wash up like a normal person: I fill a sink with hot water and washing-up liquid, and scrub the dishes in order of what needs the least attention. Glasses need a quick wipe and then they’re put aside, while the cutlery has a nice little soak at the bottom. You finish with the pans. If at any point the bubbles are not sparkling white, the water is dirty and needs to be refilled. I then move the dishes to the drying rack, without rinsing them off. In my opinion, this is the cleanest, most hygienic way of doing things, because everything has a little bath in the sink.
To be fair, dish washing turns out to be a very controversial thing. When I was doing my degree I lived in a shared student house with a British girl who was muslim, a Chinese girl and a British girl of unknown religion. The Chinese girl and I always insisted on re-doing the dishes after the second British girl did them the "normal" way as above. Then the muslim girl did them all over again with her own sponge to make sure they hadn't touched pork. But nobody picked up the used loo roll tubes from the bathroom. They piled up like abstract art :D
Don't you then have soap residue on your glasses, plates, and cutlery? I assume it's probably not a problem for your health to consume trace amounts like that, but I'd be surprised if it doesn't affect the taste of whatever you later eat using them.
Watching a roommate leave mountains of suds on dishes always made me cringe. Consuming detergent seems like a bad idea to me, and rinsing is so quick anyway. But I used the dishes anyway and never tasted any residue.
> Don't you then have soap residue on your glasses, plates, and cutlery?
Maybe a little, if the soap somehow stuck to it and didn't slide off while it was drying. But never enough to notice (at least, I never heard of anyone noticing - even foreigners who are horrified at British washing up have always talked about being grossed out by it rather than actually tasting anything).
I still wonder how electrocution is not a big issue.
My local electricity codes say absolutely no electricity within zone 0. I get a bit nervous about hooking up IP 65 rated lights to a IP X4 rated switchbox a meter away from the shower head
Electric showers are very common in the UK - although the heater is in a wall-mounted unit, with the head on a hose, rather than the heater being in the head itself.
The heating element has three layers - innermost, a wire that gets hot. Around that, a ceramic insulator. And outermost, a metal cover to protect the ceramic insulator. Then the heating element is mounted in a small water tank. And that, along with some other components, is put into a suitably waterproof outer plastic box. The insulation is of course all tested at the factory.
The tank, heating element outer, and all the pipework in the general vicinity is then grounded, and the power supply passes through an RCD (our equivalent to a GFCI). There are also two or three temperature sensors, and a water pressure sensor.
Installers also have to have an up-to-date electrical safety license - so for they know better than to (for example) compromise the waterproofing of the enclosure by adding extra holes to make the wiring simpler.
In some countries, electric showers use a metal coil as a heating element, similar to a spring, located directly in the showerhead. When you turn on the faucet, water fills the showerhead and touches the metal, effectively bringing the positive and negative wires into contact. The coil then heats the water as it flows out. Occasionally, the coil can oxidize or break if there's not enough water running to keep it cool. When that happens, most people replace it themselves.
A lot of things involving electricity in places with type-G plugs seem more dangerous if you don't know/assume that almost everything is grounded. Took me a while to realize that hairdrier he mentioned in the blogpost likely didn't have a ground connection in the plug.
In the case of a toaster with a grounded frame, the most likely route for a short is straight to earth which will trip the RCD on that set of plugs.
Toasters (usually?) don't have RCD (what they call GFCI in the UK) in the US. Maybe your circuit will have a GFCI, but it depends where you put your toaster. Do all circuits have RCD in the UK?
Most buildings that were built or have had substantial renovation work done will have RCDs installed, yes.
While you can have a separate RCD for each circuit, and the newest installations do, it's more common to have two RCDs in the panel/fuse box/consumer unit, with each circuit on one or the other. This arrangement is known as a 'split load consumer unit'. The intention of having two instead of one is that plugging in faulty electronics at night not plunge the entire house into darkness. These RCDs usually have a trip current of 30mA, making them less sensitive than American GFCIs which trip around 5mA.
i'm pretty sure that the electric showers i've used didn't have the sealed magnesia insulating layer you're describing, nor were they connected to an rcd/gfci
i do agree that the measures you're describing would make them much safer
Your local codes almost certainly say no electrical outlets in that zone, not no electricity. The assumption being hardwired devices installed by professionals are not a huge risk.
I wonder, though, why there are so few incidents where this type of shower is prevalent, given that people not used to it are so worried. If the fatality rate were 0.0001%, hundreds of people would die every day.
Right, I'm sure it has nothing to do with the plethora of "shocking" tales regarding these water heaters.
I can count on zero hands the number of times my shower has given me a jolt, even a minor one.
We mostly see these types of devices in relatively poor countries without the means to install more modern and safer alternatives, such as whole house water heaters.
You're absolutely right that they're common in poor countries and that we can't afford more modern and safer alternatives. Not to mention that the more modern alternatives heat the water much more effectively, providing way more comfort.
no, electric showers heat the water much more effectively, providing way more comfort; here in argentina i have to wait 45 seconds or so for the shower to stop running cold because the hot water has to run all the way from the hot-water tank in the kitchen. and i have to cut the shower short after about 20 minutes because i run out of hot water. i had the same two problems when i lived in the usa, though constant-recirculation systems have become more common there in recent years, solving one of them
electric showerheads, by contrast, provide instant heat, and they provide it for as long as you care to shower. what they don't provide is hot water in the sink for washing dishes, unless you take the dishpan to the shower to fill it. and if they're incorrectly installed they can be deadly, but that's a pretty rare problem both with hot-water tanks and with electric showers. i've never talked to anybody who knew anyone killed by an electric shower, and the nature of electrocution is that it's unlikely to injure you without killing you
(tankless hot-water heaters, called calefones, are common here in argentina, and they also solve one of those two problems—the other one. rooftop evacuated-tube hot-water thermosiphon hot-water heaters are also somewhat popular here)
i think that, aside from dishwashing, the main advantage hot-water tanks have over electric showers is that historically natural gas has been much cheaper than electricity. since chinese solar panel producers have driven the cost of solar panels down by a factor of 20, that's not necessarily true anymore—but the intermittency of solar-energy production favors hot-water tanks, if anything, even more strongly
apparently electric showers are common in the uk, which is not a poor country: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41250251 but with much better safety measures than i'm used to seeing in latin american countries
You're right that electric showerheads provide instant heat. My comparison was based on the electric showerhead I have at home, which can't heat very much due to electrical limitations. It's definitely not the case of every installation. On the other hand, the hot water I experience when showering at the gym or in fancy hotels is extremely, extremely hot and much more comfortable on a cold day. I also see some wealthy people installing gas heaters in their homes, which is why I associated electric showerheads with a lack of options.
oh, yeah, i don't think an electric showerhead in my house would work very well at all; some dumbfuck wired it with 15-gauge wire (1.4mm diameter, safe for up to about 10 amps) and at 240 volts you need more like 40 amps to provide a comfortable shower, depending on water flow rate
the entire house is on a single anemic 25-amp circuit breaker. at a low-flow 6 liters per minute (100g/s) heating from 15° to 40° (Δ temp = 25 kelvin) at 4.2 joules/°/gram, you need 10.5 kilowatts, which is 44 amps at 240 volts. at 120 volts just forget about it
i have had a super cheap non-tankless electric shower in a couple of places i've lived in argentina, which sucked. you would fill it up with water, plug it in to start heating the water, unplug it half an hour later to stop heating the water (hopefully before it overheated), and then open the valve at the bottom to run the shower. dangerous, inconvenient, and uncomfortable
on the other hand, if you're building an apartment building in brazil or a hotel in costa rica, there's nothing stopping you from including an 80-amp circuit in every bathroom for the electric shower. it's definitely cheaper than a hot-water tank or a tankless heater, and it might be safer too, since it might allow you to avoid running gas to the room
>on the other hand, if you're building an apartment building in brazil or a hotel in costa rica, there's nothing stopping you from including an 80-amp circuit in every bathroom for the electric shower.
Do these countries not have any limit on the current in a circuit?
Over here we're not allowed more than 16A in residential use and that's over 2.5 mm^2 wires. What kind of conductors do they use in Brasil for 80A circuits?
i'm not familiar with brazilian regulations but normally 80 amps would be about 3-gauge, 26mm². you can bend it with your bare hands if you get the stranded stuff. here in argentina people are evidently a lot more lax than that, so maybe in brazil they are too, but clearly you need at least 12mm²
I had one of these in an outside room as a teenager and in the winter it was terrible:
You can only heat water so much for the available wattage and when it was cold the water was so cold that only a thin trickle could be heated to a comfortable showering temperature.
i mean it's the same reason most people in the usa don't have a bidet in their house; it's not because they're too poor to afford one. technology adoption is path-dependent and mostly random, and fear makes people conservative. yes, there are a few people who are familiar with the actual risks and rewards of the different technologies, but they're vastly outnumbered by the pre-galilean minds who are entirely guided by conventional wisdom
most people in the usa can count on zero hands the number of times they've sprayed water on the bathroom ceiling from their bidet, too
well, it only assumes that bidets are subjectively better to many people, which they certainly are; it doesn't rely on the assumption of an objective, observer-independent scale of valuation in the way you're describing
(bidets aren't an alternative to a regular toilet, and the fact that you think they are is a minor indicator of why it's difficult for even widespread, highly beneficial innovations to become universal even after centuries)
not only is it debatable whether or not electric showers are better in that sense, i have in fact debated it; i refer you to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41250642 and eagerly await your opinion
If given the option, free of charge, to continue using electrified showerheads or using whole-home water heating... how many would continue to use electrified showerheads?
The fact that they are only common in poor and impoverished areas, tells you everything you need to know.
This argument is a lot like asserting instant-coffee is better than fresh brewed coffee because some people have no alternative choice.
probably most people would continue to use either what they're familiar with or what they think is fancier, with little regard to what they would actually like more—in the same way that many people have opted to live in suburbs where the commute makes them miserable, or drink and smoke heavily despite the impact on their health, or date abusive partners
humans are not automatically strategic. one reason is that they're subject to many kinds of irrationality; the particular species you are currently exhibiting is known as 'the fallacy of affirming the consequent'
a pretty large fraction would continue using electric showers just because they're familiar with them—but that is at best only a very weak argument. we can do better than that by debating their actual advantages and disadvantages, as i did in the linked comment, rather than mindlessly subscribing to vox populi, vox dei
if given the option, free of charge, to install a bidet in your house, would you take it? evidently not, because you don't know what a bidet is or how to use it. the same could be said of most people installing a computer in their house 50 years ago. or many modern innovations today, like a gfci, corningware, and borosilicate oven dishes, some of which have fallen out of use because consumers didn't understand them
using a cellphone instead of a landline was only common in impoverished areas 30 years ago, and even today, having front-door locks that are hard to pick are still only common in impoverished areas. also, speaking lingala is only common in impoverished areas. that's not because there's anything wrong with lingala
finally, as it happens, my wife prefers instant coffee to fresh-brewed coffee
Electricity takes the path of least resistance. If things are done right, that means through the metal heating element and the ground wire, and not through your body.
This is a dangerous myth. Electricity takes all available paths, with less current flowing through the paths with greater resistance.
As far as I understand, the main reason people don’t get electrocuted even with improperly grounded shower head heaters is that (as noted in the post), tap water is generally not very conductive in the first place, so you’ve effectively got a gigantic resistor between you and the wires (assuming there’s a continuous path through the water at all). So even if the least resistance path is through you, the amount of current will be tiny due to Ohm’s law.
It's not a myth. Your second paragraph basically agrees with me and contradicts itself.
so you’ve effectively got a gigantic resistor between you and the wires (assuming there’s a continuous path through the water at all). So even if the least resistance path is through you, the amount of current will be tiny due to Ohm’s law.
That is, by definition, NOT the "least resistance path".
Yes it is. A tip: if someone tells you something is a myth, your next step should be to google it. This is intro level parallel circuit stuff.
Hell, just think about the circuitry in your house. If you have your phone charging on one outlet, and you plug a hair dryer into the adjacent outlet, does the phone stop charging? Does the hair dryer not run? Do you think those things have exactly equal resistance? Of course not. Current flows to both of them, but more current flows to the hair dryer.
> That is, by definition, NOT the "least resistance path".
I don’t think you know what “by definition” means. You could be the only path for the electricity to flow, and if there’s high enough resistance, it won’t hurt you.
Please stop repeating this nonsensical folk wisdom. It can get people killed.
i've been shocked by an electric shower, in perú. the hotel gave me a different room. normally the metal case around the heating element is grounded, which prevents this
i don't remember ever seeing one here in argentina (perhaps they're illegal), but they're common in many countries
In the US you're also allowed to use an ungrounded GFCI if you need to retrofit an existing electrical circuit and the ground wire wasn't provided originally.
