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Ford sold 900,000 F150s in 2019.

Toyota sold about 336,000 Camrys.

They sold a little over 110,000 Tundras.

About 200,000 Tacomas.

And Ford gets GIANT markups on the F150s, they are super profitable for them and the best selling truck for many many years now. Toyota, Honda aren't even close to American truck and SUV sales.

So explain to me again how US autos aren't competitive with Japanese brands?


"For a long time" was the qualifier. I was talking about the 70s and 80s when Japanese imports were disrupting the market.


Look outside the US and you can easily see how US Auto is uncompetitive.


Germany's workforce in automotive and many other industries is HIGHLY unionized.

I've never heard of these people being lazy, not wanting to work etc.

In fact German engineering is the envy of the world!

VW, Mercedes, BMW, Porsche all German engineered and manufactured by heavily unionized workforces!

Sounds like your anecdotal bad experience with unions is not representative of reality.

And FWIW I can list you just as many terrible anecdotes about how awful business managers are...


You know what they also all of in common? Zero innovation since decades.

And German car engineering is mostly known for being overly complicated, I say that as a German.


Agree.

Close to zero progress in electrifying European produced cars. I would say unions are the cause for the delay resisting any change away from skills their members have, but obsoleted by electric cars with 1/10 the number of parts required.


VW group has twice the EVs in pipeline than Tesla. Sales are probably gonna overtake Tesla this or next year. They are not as fun as Teslas but they are solid products that people seem to prefer over fart mode that cost them extra $10k.


We'll see about that pipeline, as the underlying massive investment needed got blocked last year by union leaders.


On what evidence do you say that? The German auto unions have been saying for years that the switch to electric needs to be planned and managed exactly so the sector remains competitive and can employ people


Who needs evidence when you have ideology?


>And German car engineering is mostly known for being overly complicated, I say that as a German

Being German doesn't give your statement credibility - you don't have to be German to drive or understand a German car.

If you said "as a German automotive engineer" then it might carry some weight, but only if also provided specifics.


The point is I'm not an American/Japanese who is biased against German cars for whatever reason..


The manufacturing unions surely have nothing to do with the engineering and design of the vehicles.


>VW, Mercedes, BMW, Porsche all German engineered and manufactured by heavily unionized workforces!

Sure, but for each of those there are 10-100 other smaller companies in automotive or other industries that don't have unions, and some German companies have stirred up quite a few scandals of not following the employment laws or abusing their workforce, which coincidentally was mostly immigrants.

Cherry picking the big, wealthy car brands to represent the manufacturing industry is like cherry picking FAANG for representing the software dev industry.


SO OP gets to claim based on his anecdotal experience that unions are awful and full of lazy people.

But pointing out there are wildly successful unions filled with hardworking people is "cherry picking"?


I didn't say unions are not successful, I said that workplaces like VW or Porsche are not the norm in Germany. They're like Germany's FAANG; very successful, but not the norm for every industry employee there since they don't all enjoy such good conditions.


I have yet to hear people in Europe being upset that they are unionized.


I had a friend from France getting his undergraduate degree in the US Marvel at how much learning we were getting done, since we didnt spend half of every semester on strike.

There are good and bad unions everywhere, but I think the closed-shop restrictions in the US that force you to join a particular union as a condition of employment exacerbates the worst qualities of them here.


Again, I didn't say unions are bad, I said they're not the norm for every employee in europe


Um, some unemployed rioters and burning cars in France every single weekend would beg to differ with you.


I don't know why you claim that smaller companies in the automotive sector in Germany don't have ununionzed workforces, but the IG Metall has a »Organisationsgrad« in this sector (how many of the workers are union members) above 90 percent (see https://www.wiwo.de/politik/deutschland/gewerkschaften-die-u...).


It's likely not as bad as in France, but in a shifting economy, German unions are still hurting the manufacturers. Just last year they got the CEO of Volkswagen fired for wanting to invest massively in electric cars. Workers specialized in ICE drivetrains can't have that. Much easier to block the innovation at board level than to retrain. That will go on until somehow union dominance is overcome or the companies are dead in the water against new competitors.


Ford, GM, Dodge have made an absolute killing in SUVs and trucks over the last several years.

Ford sold about 900,000 F150 in 2019 alone. That's not even counting 250s and higher.

And these trucks and SUVs are WILDLY profitable!

And they are made with union labor...

I just don't get it since "the uaw people literally avoid any kind of work"

How do they build millions of trucks and SUVs then?


GM has been unionized in some form or fashion for nearly a century.

And they were wildly profitable, and successful, one of the largest and most successful businesses in the entire world!

Toyota also has a large unionized workforce in many places!

They've also been wildly successful for many decades!

I'm really not getting this "wither and stagnate" argument.

Unless you mean if Tesla is unionized maybe in 60 years they will be disrupted by a new upstart firm.

Well...ok but that has nothing at all to do with unions.


I don't care who was "baited"

A US Senator threatening to retaliate and break-up a business because she didn't like tweets about her is straight-up authoritarian thuggery.

It's the same shit Trump used to do but when Liz does it...well it's GREAT, she's "fighting for the working class"


So it's okay for a business to treat employees so badly they find they have to piss in bottles?

And it's okay for their official PR twitter account to lie and say it doesn't happen?

But it's not okay that a politician says they're going to do something about it?


Politicians should not be threatening to silence people or companies, regardless of whether the latter are lying or treating people badly.

If Amazon is breaking employment law or anti-monopoly law or anything else it can be fined or broken up. What it should not be is silenced.


https://www.businessinsider.com/elizabeth-warren-amazon-twit...

I've quote the tweets below.

Warren has been campaigning to break up large tech companies.

What is so unprofessional about that? Clearly if she was to try and get them fined or broken up it would be through these laws.

She isn't silencing them. She's saying that there'll be consequences.

And Amazon's PR isn't a small company. They can take the heat.

I don't agree with you. A company that forces employees to piss in bottles and lies about it should have their lies face consequences.

Warren isn't removing their tweets. How are they being silenced?

Here is the quotes:

``` After she posted the video on Twitter, saying that companies like Amazon "pay close to nothing in taxes," the tech giant quickly fired back.

"You make the tax laws @SenWarren; we just follow them," it tweeted from its official news account.

"If you don't like the laws you've created, by all means, change them," it added.

Amazon said that it had paid "billions of dollars" in corporate taxes over the past few years alone.

Warren hit back, saying: "I didn't write the loopholes you exploit, @amazon – your armies of lawyers and lobbyists did.

"But you bet I'll fight to make you pay your fair share," she added. "And fight your union-busting. And fight to break up Big Tech so you're not powerful enough to heckle senators with snotty tweets." ```


The alarming thing is her thinking that power is required to be able to heckle senators.

Anyone should be able to heckle senators on twittwr! From Mark Zuckerberg to the homeless man in the nearby park!


You're being obtuse. You know as well as anyone that it doesn't matter if the homeless man in the park heckles Senators. That's the difference; Amazon has real power behind their words.


The problem is not that Amazon is criticising politicians. The problem is that Amazon doesn't need to care; it'll get loads of money anyway. I need to care about what I say, because if I upset people, they'll stop interacting with me.

If Amazon started running adverts about a giant space monkey that wanted to eat the moon, what would happen?


I would expect more nuance from an HN reader. It's possible for both amazon and warren to be in the wrong.


I don't see where Warren is wrong here.

Care to explain it? Because it seems like the point of view advocated is "Politicans should not express views I don't like on social media"


If Warren tweeted that she was going to break up amazon because they were harming consumers and mistreating workers, etc, that would be one thing.

Instead, she is going after amazon as a personal vendetta because she feels 'heckled'. She is explicitly attacking first amendment rights. It's a textbook case of corruption / abuse of power.


Are you actually serious? She's been going after amazon for years.

Like breaking up big tech companies is pretty much the only thing you hear about her in passing.

A personal vendetta against their twitter account just didn't start now.

Also this is corruption / abuse of power to you? You might want to get a new textbook.


Instead of “Politicans should not express views I don't like on social media” how about “Politicans should not express the view that ‘people shouldn’t be powerful enough to be snotty to/heckle me’ on any platform.”

It’s the “so you’re not powerful enough to heckle senators with snotty tweets” part that’s bad. Regardless of how you feel about her campaign to break up big tech, this is an appalling thing for a government official to say. I hate Twitter and Twitter culture as much as anyone, but “you shouldn’t be powerful enough to be snotty to a senator” is dystopian in my book.


But in this case the Amazon Twitter account is in the wrong while Warren is in the right. Amazon Twitter straight up lied. Warren is actively doing the job she was elected to do of motivating change to make laws and rules that will change the underlying foundation of the business landscape in ways that she and those who voted for her perceive as positive.


Amazon's actions have absolutely nothing to do with this.

US Senators should not be threatening retaliation against a company because of tweets that piss them off.

Why is this only bad when Trump or a Republican does it?


Why can't US Senators do that?

I presume the people that voted for Warren are on her side in this argument so she's being an advocate for their views.

Just because you think Amazon's employees being forced to piss in bottles isn't bad to you doesn't mean that others sees it as an injustice that makes people angry.

>Why is this only bad when Trump or a Republican does it?

Maybe treat each event on a case by case basis rather than a blanket rule?


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