You guys know that the type of fight that goes like "guys get angry, guys punch each other a few times" aren't always the same as "guys get angry, one guy kills the other"?

I'm not one for hypothesizing based on hunches that look evolutionarily plausible, but, given that for a long time humans lived to 20, 25 years old, consider the types of fights teenagers and kids get into these days. A few punches, somebody (or both people) loses with some bruises, nobody dies, nobody gets seriously hurt.

We're comparing those types of fights with murders here. Apples to oranges.

Which type of fight has greater implications for the evolution of human facial bone structure?

Depends. Two guys who just want to fight are probably going to have a shoving match which will end when one gets pinned and the other guy gets pulled off.

Two groups of guys who have some need to fight over are more likely to use tools.

If two people are having a shoving match, they don't really want to fight. A fight implies you want to hurt the other person, not escalate the situation until one of you gathers the courage to strike the other.

True. It only takes one person to turn a fist fight into a shoving match. Grab on, and keep moving.

They're on some painkillers, too, and have short careers.

Can confirm. Getting hit by a 200+ pounder sucks. Getting hit by a 130lber makes you wonder if they're even trying.

and that part about the right way to hit different parts of the body.

a slap is almost as hard, and won't hurt the slapper.

A slap is no where near as hard. Surface area of an open hand vs surface area of 2-3 knuckles. Think hammer vs fly-swat.

It is still possible to knock someone out with a slap. Some bouncers in the UK recommend it as a) it doesn't hurt your hand so much and b) telling the police you just slapped someone doesn't sound so bad. Plenty of videos on youtube of people being knocked out with a slap.

being knocked out is related to the brain hitting the walls of the skull, it has very little to do with what caused that. Slap, Fist, head-butt, concrete, car crash etc.

But I was responding to the claim slapping is equivalent to punching.

Depends on the goal. You're right about it being less likely to break a bone (on the target) or cause bleeding (again, on the target), but a solid slap will cause similar secondary impacts (brain hitting the skull)

I'll take a KO after some body shots and two working hands over a bloodied up opponent and a broken hand. There are much better tools to use against a skull, like elbows (less delicate than hands), but you need to account for range and movement.

You are arguing hypothetical outcomes, I'm arguing applied force.

We are kind of talking past each other.

Just so we're talking about the same kind of slap. If I had to guess, and I can only guess at this point, you're thinking... like... a slap, a swing with an arm.

I'm talking more like an open handed punch, complete with torso rotation and a pivot. Like a hook, just no fist.

oh, oh, got another one.

Look into the impulse of the strike, and the pressure area. Here, you're going to see a big difference, in favor of your position.

You'll have the same amount of force, probably with a significant increase in the speed that force transmits into the struck area. You're right. Past a certain point, though, someone doesn't get /more/ unconscious.

And, to anticipate your possible response, yes, they can end up /more/ unconscious to the point of death, but, cement does a much better job of that than any human body part.

No sir. Been slapped, been punched, and done both. I'm talking anecdotal evidence, you're talking engineering.

There are completely different mechanics in a slap though. With a punch you have different delivery options (looping vs linear vs uppercut etc) all of which affect the way in which the force is generated. With a slap you're pretty limited.

That said, getting slapped has a psychological effect you don't get from a punch, which can be exactly what you want.

I thought the same thing about tech, until a very short while ago. I'll agree that there is a fair bit of hubris in the industry among developers ("shit code" vs "my code"), but beyond that, the arrogance that seems prevalent isn't really much more prevalent than general society.

It's just that the bar for entry into tech is, really, somewhat high in terms of social capital and intelligence, leading to a group of (generally) well spoken or well written individuals who often reality test their assumptions amongst each other. You'll see similarly well composed (not necessarily STRONG arguments, but well composed) thoughts coming out of similar fields: law, medicine, politics.