Not sure if I'd use the same descriptions so pointedly, but I can see what they mean.
It's perfectly fine to link for convenience, but it does feel a little disrespectful/SEO-y to not 'continue the conversation'. A summary in the very least, how exactly it pertains. Sell us.
In a sense, link-dropping [alone] is saying: "go read this and establish my rhetorical/social position, I'm done here"
Imagine meeting an author/producer/whatever you liked. You'd want to talk about their work, how they created it, the impact it had, and so on. Now imagine if they did that... or if they waved their hand vaguely at a catalog.
I've genuinely been answering the question "what if the labs are training on your pelican benchmark" 3-4 times a week for several months at this point. I wrote that piece precisely so I didn't have to copy and paste the same arguments into dozens of different conversations.
Oh, no. Does this policing job pay well? /s Seriously: less is more, trust the process, any number of platitudes work here. Who are you defending against? Readers, right? You wrote your thing, defended it with more of the thing. It'll permeate. Or it won't. Does it matter?
You could be done, nothing is making you defend this (sorry) asinine benchmark across the internet. Not trying to (m|y)uck your yum, or whatever.
Remember, I did say linking for convenience is fine. We're belaboring the worst reading in comments. Inconsequential, unnecessary heartburn. Link the blog posts together and call it good enough.
Surprised to see snark re: what I thought was a standard practice (linking FAQs, essentially).
I hadn’t seen the post. It was relevant. I just read it. Lucky Ten Thousand can read it next time even though I won’t.
Simon has never seemed annoying so unlike other comments that might worry me (even “Opus made this” even though it’s cool but I’m concerned someone astroturfed), that comment would’ve never raised my eyebrows. He’s also dedicated and I love he devotes his time to a new field like this where it’s great to have attempts at benchmarks, folks cutting through chaff, etc.
The specific 'question' is a promise to catch training on more publicly available data, and to expect more blog links copied 'into dozens of different conversations'... Jump for joy. Stop the presses. Oops, snarky again :)
Yes, the LLM people will train on this. They will train on absolutely everything [as they have]. The comments/links prioritize engagement over awareness. My point, I suppose, if I had one is that this blogosphere can add to the chaff. I'm glad to see Simon here often/interested.
Aside: all this concern about over-fitting just reinforces my belief these things won't take the profession any time soon. Maybe the job.
Having read the followup post being linked, I'm even more confused. Commenting or, really, anything seems even less worthwhile. That's my point.
You bring the benchmark and anticipated their... cheesing, with a promise to catch them on it. Cool announcement of an announcement. Just do that [or don't]. In a hippy sense, this is no longer yours. It's out there. Like everything else anyone wrote.
Let the LLM people train on your test. Catch them as claimed. Publish again. Huzzah, industry without overtime in the comments. It makes sense/cents to position yourself this way :)
Obviously they're going to train on anything they can get. They did. Mouse, meet cat. Some of us in the house would love it if y'all would keep it down! This is 90s rap beef all over again
It is SEO-y and I’m sure no small impulse is to drive traffic to his website since he’s primarily an AI influencer.
However, there are always people who are “native” to a platform and field. Pieter Levels is native to Twitter and the nomad community. Swyx is native to Twitter/HN and the devtools community. And simonw is native to at least HN and the LLM-interest community. And various streamers and onlyfans creators do the same with theirs.
Through some degree of releasing things that whatever that community values they build a relationship that allows them greater freedom in participating there. It does create a positive feedback cycle for them (and hopefully the community) that most of them will try to parlay into something else: Levels and the OnlyFans creators are probably best at this monetization of reputation but each of them is doing this. One success step for simonw would be “Creator of Pelican LLM benchmark”.
Once you’ve breached some stable point in the community the norms are somewhat relaxed. But it’s not easy to do that. You have to produce some extraordinary volume of things that people value.
I think, tbh, tptacek here could most effectively monetize if he decided to. But he doesn’t appear to want to so he’s just a participant not an influencer so to speak. Whereas someone like Levels or simonw is both.
It’s just creator economy stuff. Meta discussions like this always pop up. But ultimately simonw is past the threshold of trust. There are people who say “wtf? Why is levels making $50k/mo on a stupid vibe-coded flying game?”
It ain’t the game. It’s the following before the game. The resource is the audience.
Not so much leaving money on the table as you have a valuable resource you are underutilizing in this respect. You’d have to cross-cultivate your audience and expand to fill some niche.
That means that instead of dropping facts here you should post it on Substack and link to it here. You’ll be fine with it because you’re trusted here so people will be like “oh it’s fine”.
And then once you have the newsletter going and you have a following there you can do paid placements etc. that don't have to be done by you.
I think you have the highest potential on this front but that doesn't mean there's comparative advantage. It may not be worth it to you. For instance, I would never do it. To keep that wheel spinning you have to keep putting energy into it. And I have other ways of making money, so even with your account it would be a waste.
Hell, I would consider myself graced that simonw, yes, THAT simonw, the LLM whisperer, took time out of his busy schedule to send me to a discussion I might have expressed interest in.
... and my point remains: he's fine. Could be better. If he does grace us, he can choose to bait the hook more effectively. Or not. The stakes are silly-low.
This interaction is, effectively, a link dropped with an announcement of an announcement. For what has already occurred. Over-fitting, training? You don't say.
If I wanted to be more of an ass, I'd look to argue about hype generation. But I don't, I appreciate any honest effort, which I believe for Simon.
the date has been changing for years now. one day someone will actually define what bubble we are waiting to burst and then will poke it to burst and many will say “hey, see I was right all along” ;)
Sounds very similar to my childhood. My parents told me I couldn't eat sand because worms would grow inside of me. Now I have trust issues and prefer local LLMs.
The funny thing is the CDC says the same thing as your parents did
Whipworm, hookworm, and Ascaris are the three types of soil-transmitted helminths (parasitic worms)... Soil-transmitted helminths are among the most common human parasites globally.
I wrote a confession to a pen pal once but the letter got lost in the mail. Now I refuse to use the postal service, have issues with French people and prefer local LLMs.
I pitched AGI to VC but the bills will be delivered. Now I need to find a new bagholder, squeeze, or angle because I'm having issues with delivery... something, something, prefer hype
Do I? Well, verification helps. I said 'prefer', nothing more/less.
If you must know, I don't trust this stuff. Not even on my main system/network; it's isolated in every way I can manage because trust is low. Not even for malice, necessarily. Just another manifestation of moving fast/breaking things.
To your point, I expect a certain amount of bias and XY problems from these things. Either from my input, the model provider, or the material they're ultimately regurgitating. Trust? Hah!
I've had a high-income job (career?) for two decades... and while I'd love a house, the realized demand is zero. The thumb remains. Case in point, the RTO fad. No certainty. I know at least three executives who were forced to move after building new homes.
Executives forced to move after building a house. That really shows how desperate companies are to keep the lights on. Nobody pisses off the execs... unless the companies have ceased to operate normally as businesses, and are now hollow shells propping up an illusory stock market.
Desperate for lights, petty punishment, hard to tell. Point being... keeping options open has rarely done poorly. Doesn't feel like the time to commit. Not convinced it ever will.
edit: I hear someone now, "If that happens to you, sell the house!"... I'd like to stick with one career, thanks.
I did it the other direction -- I bought a relatively cheap house, and if the winds of change come, I would rather get a different career than location! Two different equally valid perspectives IMO, as long as you're not dependent on having a particular career in order to make your house payments.
Good point, not good to be so dependent on a career. I'm almost there; useless without a computer involved. Eager to change the location one more time to somewhere affordable. The city is wasted on me.
A career change may be earlier than expected with the LLM craze.
This is pretty laughably false. Sure, the CEO has a lot of power and I've certainly seen companies relocate so they are basically within walking distance from the CEO's house.
But "execs" covers a lot of people, and nobody gives a shit where the CIO or VP of engineering lives. If anything, these folks are more career driven and are expected to up and move at the drop of a hat if business conditions warrant.
Even if it was in good faith the offer is “ask me a question and I’ll type it into a publicly available LLM”. Wow what a once in a lifetime opportunity!
It's perfectly fine to link for convenience, but it does feel a little disrespectful/SEO-y to not 'continue the conversation'. A summary in the very least, how exactly it pertains. Sell us.
In a sense, link-dropping [alone] is saying: "go read this and establish my rhetorical/social position, I'm done here"
Imagine meeting an author/producer/whatever you liked. You'd want to talk about their work, how they created it, the impact it had, and so on. Now imagine if they did that... or if they waved their hand vaguely at a catalog.
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