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Then perhaps Uber should find a new business model? Lyft lets women specifically request a female driver.

I think this is exactly the point that GP commenter is making.

Let's hope.

>Do you think Uber instructed their drivers to rape people?

Is that the legal standard here? No.


Yes, that's the legal standard. You should read the linked article. A company is only responsible for crimes or injuries their employees commit, if these are part of what they've been instructed to do by the company.

How can you even think another way? Only the rapist is guilty of rape. Any other thinking is apologizing for heinous crimes.


> Only the rapist is guilty of rape.

Sure. If Uber was convicted of the crime of rape here, that'd be weird.

They were found civilly liable. Because of things like this:

> Over three weeks, jurors weighed the harrowing personal account of Ms. Dean as well as testimony from Uber executives and thousands of pages of internal company documents, including some showing that Uber had flagged her ride as a higher risk for a serious safety incident moments before she was picked up. Uber never warned her, with an executive testifying that it would have been “impractical” to do so.


Do you know what that serious safety incident was? I don't. I don't find support in the article of any connection. It could have been reckless driving, or it could have been sexual in nature. What it was makes a lot of difference.

It may surprise you, but a four week jury trial covers a few more bases than a short article can fully detail. That said, this definitely has an answer:

https://www.courthousenews.com/in-sexual-assault-trial-uber-...

> When matching drivers with riders, Uber uses an AI-powered safety feature called the safety ride assistant dispatch, or SRAD. SRAD gives potential driver-rider matches a score from 0 to 1 based on potential for sexual assault and aims to make matches with the lowest risk.


The article also says that Uber sets various thresholds around this already and that their system flagged it at a score that was "higher than the late night average". What it doesn't tell us is what the threshold is/was for Pheonix, or how that threshold compares to other cities, or even how much higher the score was over the "average". Maybe their threshold for canceling a ride is 0.85, and the late night average is 0.8 in this system. So 0.81 puts the driver over the late night average as per the article and under the threshold for canceling the ride.

Your email provider has systems for detecting spam and removing it from your email. If an email comes into their system and falls under the threshold for being declared spam, but is over the average spam rating for emails in your account, have they done something wrong by allowing it through if it's spam? What if it wasn't spam and they removed it?

These sorts of headlines that espouse a "they knew something and so therefore they are liable" viewpoint seem to me to be more likely to result in companies not building safety measurement systems, or at a minimum not building proactive systems, so that they can avoid getting dragged and blamed for an assault because they chose thresholds that didn't prevent the assault. And not all measurement systems are granular enough or reliable enough to be exposed to end users. Imagine if they built a system that determined that if your driver was from a low income part of town and the passenger lived in a high income part of down the chance of an assault was "higher than the late night average". How long would it be before we saw a different lawsuit alleging that Uber discriminated against minority drivers by telling affluent white passengers that their low income minority drivers were "more likely than average" to assault them? I would hope that this verdict was reached on stronger reasoning than "they had an automated number and didn't say anything" but if it did, none of the articles so far have said what that reasoning was.


> system flagged it at a score that was "higher than the late night average"

Being charitable to the quality of Uber's legal team, I feel they could easily and compellingly have offered this defense.

It's telling that other documentary evidence highlighted that Uber decided sharing its reservations/acting on its system would be detrimental to growth.


Unless every driver scores exactly the same, you will always have at least 50% of drivers higher than the average.

> Unless every driver scores exactly the same, you will always have at least 50% of drivers higher than the average.

Yes, and Uber is very comfortable telling me that rides are at a higher price and that I may wish to wait for a few minutes for a lower price.

So it would seem that they are capable of identifying averages and determining whether data fall above or below the averages.


And so what messaging do you propose Uber puts in their app for this? "Your driver has a higher than average probability of assaulting you, you may want to wait for another driver"? That will last until the first driver sues for slander. It's one thing to tell you that "prices are higher right now" it's a completely different thing to imply to you that your driver is a criminal.

> A company is only responsible for crimes or injuries their employees commit, if these are part of what they've been instructed to do by the company.

Are you trying to imply that the driver was not instructed by Uber to pick the woman who was raped?

> How can you even think another way? Only the rapist is guilty of rape. Any other thinking is apologizing for heinous crimes.

The company is responsible for sending a rapist to pick up the woman that was raped.


[flagged]


No one is defending the rapist.

The rape was a crime.

Uber has civil liability for contributing to its occurring.


That Uber is liable does not imply that the driver is not also liable.

The killer was the bullet, not the person who held the gun.

Did you stretch before that reach?

I agree, both of our arguments are ridiculous.

Is an owner of a dog that mauls someone responsible for damages to the victim?

Extremely strange analogy. Uber drivers aren't per dogs. They are adult humans you can make them liable for shit they do.

You can make both liable, too.

Do companies own their workers?

If one of my electricians accidentally bangs a sprinkler head and thousands of gallons of water dump into the building, my company is responsible for any damages. Obviously we’re insured against these risks, but we’re liable.

There’s almost always a contract that spells it out, but in the situation where there is no explicit contract, I’d expect that we’re still liable.

My electricians are W2 employees and not contractors, and it’s possible that construction has different laws regarding liability than a ride share company that uses contractors, so they’re not equivalent, and I am not a lawyer.


Oh wow, what a bad memory. This exact thing happened in a building I lived in several years ago, a couple of floors above me. It looked like waterfalls outside our windows and water was rushing in under the baseboards. All while every fire alarm in the building was going off and fire truck sirens were blaring outside. Understandably, the fire department would not turn off the water until they had been to every floor to check for fire. On the upside, it's impressive how much water can be delivered by fire sprinklers.

Closer to the topic, the building's management company tried to come after me (a renter) for the expense of the restoration people who were brought in to rip out my drywall and carpet so mold wouldn't form. Maybe they figured tenants were an easier target than the contractor's insurance? Oh, and the management company were the ones who selected and hired the contractors. I had to get very aggressive, with plenty of threats of legal action, to get them to back down. That was fairly easy to do as my state's laws specifically specify liability rules for flooding in multi-tenant buildings. They never did do repairs while I was there - I moved out when my lease expired nearly a year later as they were tying to raise the rent, with drywall still missing.


Oh man, multi-tenant housing sounds like the worst case scenario for this sort of thing. I’m glad you were able to avoid any liability, trying to pin liability for rebuilding a unit on a tenant is insane.

And yeah, the volume of water a fire pump can move is astounding. Electrical code requires the fire pump to be wired so that it can run at its locked rotor amp rating without tripping overcurrent protection and it’s usually tapped directly off the utility transformer separately from the rest of the electrical service. There’s also a smaller jockey pump that maintains water pressure in the system so that when the main pump turns on, there’s no lag with water coming out. The pump motor will keep spinning even if there’s a dead short if it’s fused right above locked rotor amps, since replacing a motor is cheaper than replacing a fully burned out structure and keeping the water flowing allows as many people to escape as possible. The feeder has to be encased in concrete or it has to be fire-resistant cable.


There are jobs where anything the employee does on company time is owned by the company.

The companies themselves certainly think they do when they give tasks for their workers by dictating the duration, manner, and other terms of employment. Why should they be able to have it both ways? No risk, all reward?

It probably depends on the state but in California, yes. Dog owners there are strictly liable for any injuries caused by their dogs unless the victim was trespassing.

Yes, that was my point; it was a rhetorical question.

If the state knew the guy was a rapist, then Uber could have too, had it done due diligence prior to putting the guy in the car with someone else.

You then create a bigger bounty to identify the entrepreneurs, and now it's bounties all the way down.

Scientifically illiterate grifters would be better suited for roles other than head of HHS, but here we are, living in imperfect times.

Wisdom is knowing when not to put a tomato in a fruit salad.

https://cheflindseyfarr.com/marinated-tomato-stone-fruit-sal...

(I second the recommendation of adding burrata.)


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