Maybe it's just me, but I don't see much wrong with any of the options above. Most of my assets aren't liquid either, yet I'm still taxed at a much much higher rate (when compared to total assets) than the top. I have to make decisions like "how much will I need good health care coverage next year?", which I shouldn't have to say isn't "ideal" either.
You're taxed on income, like anyone else, but the big difference is that wealthy people get liquid cash through tricks like borrow, spend, die. They also have other ways to gain wealth that don't involve a cash phase.
I'll get hate from some corners on this, but I'm coming to see the wisdom in not significantly increasing the tax rate on the rich, but instead broadening the tax base. For example, count tricks like borrow, spend, die as cash; make stock buybacks illegal; treat compensation in the form of assets as cash income at the valuation price when the transfer happens; count inheritances above $X million as income, cash income.
Wealth tax is not on Assets. It's on Stocks. The top pay the same tax on their personal income. Wealth tax is different. It taxes Ownership of Stocks not Assets.
How are stocks not assets? They're shares of ownership in a company, without personal obligations to that company. They're certainly not liabilities. So what do you think they are?
They are assets from personal perspective yes. But they are in the form of equity in company's balance sheet in which it is invested. Which is why it is on the liability side of the equation (A = L + E).
If you impose a wealth tax on this, which side are you imposing it on? Company or individual investor in the company? You cannot impose a tax on what is technically a liability on the company's books. So you would have to impose on the individual investor. Lets try with an example: assume the wealth tax is 10%. Lets also assume I hold 5 million common stock, pre-seed, in a startup I founded (45% equity). How would the stock be valued? It should be zero. So I pay zero wealth tax. Then I get an investor onboard, who invests say $1 million at 10%, valuing the company at $10 million. Lets assume, because of this capital infusion, my equity gets diluted to 40%. That means I am on paper worth $4 million. I immediately owe 10% of it or $400,000 to tax authorities. Without having made a single cent in revenue. My co-founder would also owe $400,000. We have no money of our own except to use the investment money to pay the taxes. That is $400,000 + $400,000 = $800,000. We are left with only $200,000 in the bank. Before we even started the company.
You might say 10% is too much. Lets reduce the wealth tax to say 1%. Or even 0.1%. Then the entire idea becomes meaningless. Might as well just charge extra corporate tax.
What are you actually living off is the "million dollar" question? Normal people have to pay income tax and its on the gross or whatever, how are you paying your bills is completely absent here
Is this concerning? Can you explain your point a bit more clearly, for the benefit of people like me that don't want individuals to have more power (whether its in "stocks" or "assets") than entire nations?
It is concerning for the simple reason that you have a stake in a company based on a future bet that the company will succeed. There is no guarantee for success. It's because owner has a stake will he/she work towards building a vision for his/her idea that is put into execution. Asset is not tied to any idea whatsoever nor is there any vision to strive towards. Infact the investment itself exchanges stock for introduction of asset (capital infusion). So money is being put into the company by owners or investors in exchange for stake. Beneficiaries of this capital investment will be employees first typically. Only once the company takes off and finds success can owners/investors cash in on their investment that too if they sell their stock. So in effect the rich have their money locked-in.
If you tax stocks, the rich will have no incentive to keep their money locked-in. They will encash and exit to a jurisdiction that allows them to invest their proceeds into stocks again. Lets assume a hypothetical scenario where all jurisdictions impose a tax on stocks. Then they'll retire by investing in assets or heck just keep it in their banks.
What you are asking for won't work in a capitalist society (which is pretty much every society on Earth). The only way out is UBI.
> Lets assume a hypothetical scenario where all jurisdictions impose a tax on stocks. Then they'll retire by investing in assets or heck just keep it in their banks.
What untaxed assets would those be? Are you saying the bank interest would be higher than other investments minus tax?
I am having trouble following your argument to your last conclusion.
Taxed assets are always going to be way lesser than any hypothetical tax on stocks. Lets assume investment is in housing. Rent collected can easily be used to offset property tax on the asset. Now you cannot collect rent on stocks the way you can collect rent on assets like a residential/commercial property. So the only way to pay tax on stock value (which is assessed by a valuer at that particular point in time) is by either paying it out of personal pocket, taking a loan or selling the stock. None of those options are feasible.
> Are you saying the bank interest would be higher than other investments minus tax?
It absolutely will. When you tax stocks, you are eroding its value. Why would anyone want to continue to keep their wealth in stocks when they could just cash out and not lose any of that value?
> Taxed assets are always going to be way lesser than any hypothetical tax on stocks.
This is not a universal truth.
> Rent collected can easily be used to offset property tax on the asset. Now you cannot collect rent on stocks
You actually can, it's called securities lending.
> So the only way to pay tax on stock value (which is assessed by a valuer at that particular point in time) is by either paying it out of personal pocket, taking a loan or selling the stock. None of those options are feasible.
1) Why not. 2) Sounds like someone needs an income (which is already taxed and would have solved much of the tax avoidance).
> It absolutely will. When you tax stocks, you are eroding its value. Why would anyone want to continue to keep their wealth in stocks when they could just cash out and not lose any of that value?
> You actually can, it's called securities lending.
You cannot do that with private companies. It is only restricted to public securities. And even these are not owner/investor stocks (which are locked for a certain period after company goes public via IPO). These are typically fresh stocks issued before company goes public.
> This is not a universal truth.
What is the evidence for it working otherwise? Every Country that has tried Wealth Tax has rolled it back.
> A lesser gain is not a loss.
It is not a capital gains tax (which already exists). Wealth tax is a tax on unrealized gains. It definitely leads to erosion of stock value.
> 1) Why not. 2) Sounds like someone needs an income (which is already taxed and would have solved much of the tax avoidance).
You have just encountered a classic Catch-22 here. Without income, you cannot pay tax. Without paying tax, you have no revenue and hence no income.
paying it out of personal pocket is what I have to do when I pay property taxes on the unrealized value of my home. And I don't have the option to sell partial shares of it. This tax is my biggest expense.
It is not the same thing. Property tax can easily be offset by rental income, unless you are staying in it ofcourse. You cannot rent stocks.
> And I don't have the option to sell partial shares of it
Sure. But you can always rent it out and move to a smaller rental. And it is a good thing you cannot sell partial shares of it. You shouldn't. Imagine selling partial shares/stocks every time you have to pay tax on stocks. You will end up with nothing in a few years.
UBI would mean forever locking in autocratic control by the few owners, reducing the rest of us to depend on the graciousness of those who have time and time again shown they have none. An allowance is not a solution to the power distribution problem.
We cannot claim to live in a democracy while Elon Musk gets to decide whether our allies can use communications or close down entire branches of government.
There's many other solutions you gloss over, from capital controls for the more near-term issue to moving past capitalism for the more long-term systemic fix.
You dont need incentives for the rich. You can just pass laws limiting their options.
UBI can be implemented in a different way. Tax a portion of the profits earned and reserve it specifically for UBI. It is not an allowance either. It is what will keep economy afloat. Else if no one can buy the products/services the rich sell, then their stocks will be worth nothing.
> We cannot claim to live in a democracy while Elon Musk gets to decide whether our allies can use communications or close down entire branches of government.
This can be fixed with laws around lobbying.
> capital controls for the more near-term issue
Capital controls won't solve much because it is a one time exit tax that stakeholders have to pay to move out of the jurisdiction taxing stocks. Those who cannot move will shutdown their companies and invest those proceeds into assets, typically immovable (like land/houses etc), which will drive housing prices up. It has cascading effects that affect the economy in a different way.
This causes displacement of those who cannot afford housing, which will incentivize the rich outside the jurisdiction to buy up assets and then that causes a change in voting structures. The rich can then vote their candidate who will reverse capital controls. Or maybe they won't and keep it that way so they have their own gated society so to speak with no entry for those who cannot afford to be there. You can already see it happening in few places in the World where such controls exist.
> You dont need incentives for the rich. You can just pass laws limiting their options.
You are missing the point. The incentives are for everyone who want to give it a shot at trying to take their idea, implement a vision and then execute on it. Does not mean they will succeed. The tiny percentage who do succeed end up becoming rich. See the number of startups that succeed vs those that failed. You are not disincentivizing the rich by imposing wealth tax. You are disincentivizing the average Joe who wants a shot at making it.
Of course UBI is an allowance. You can't just say it isn't without making an argument. The problem isn't just money. It's ownership. If a few dudes control most productive forces, that is inherently antidemocratic. No amount of trying to pay off the public with some elaborate scheme that doesn't remove their control will fix that.
> This can be fixed with laws around lobbying.
No it can't, and lobbying has nothing to do with the problem of one guy being the petty autocrat on top of his empire rivaling democratic states.
> Capital controls won't solve much because it is a one time exit tax that stakeholders have to pay to move out of the jurisdiction taxing stocks.
Who said that? You've defined your own narrow version of capital controls to then argue against. States could just ban moving capital out of the country. Countries can just pass laws! They don't need to do whatever makes rich people happy.
> You are missing the point. The incentives are for everyone who want to give it a shot at trying to take their idea, implement a vision and then execute on it.
You are missing the point. People do all sorts of stuff for all sorts of reasons. Many companies are founded because somebody saw a real issue and wanted to fix it. Others are founded because somebody found a loophole or a way to extract capital by moving some numbers around or monopolizing something others need.
I would posit that if the only reason somebody opens a company is greed, then maybe that company would be a net-negative for society anyways?
> Who said that? You've defined your own narrow version of capital controls to then argue against. States could just ban moving capital out of the country. Countries can just pass laws! They don't need to do whatever makes rich people happy.
If capital cannot be taken out of country then it can be put in assets mate. I have explained that scenario already.
> If a few dudes control most productive forces, that is inherently antidemocratic. No amount of trying to pay off the public with some elaborate scheme that doesn't remove their control will fix that.
Then have more dudes controlling most productive forces. You have anti-monopoly and antitrust laws for that exact reason.
> If the only reason somebody opens a company is greed, then maybe that company would be a net-negative for society anyways?
It is not greed. Money is a by-product of success and follows success wherever it goes. You cannot dissociate the two.
> Of course UBI is an allowance. You can't just say it isn't without making an argument
It really isn't. It is the same argument as utilities. You individually haven't paid the full amount for construction of road network, bridges, electric grid yet you don't consider it an "allowance" do you? You believe you have contributed your fair share. Yet you still enjoy these utilities wherever you are and for life by only paying for how much you use it. UBI is the exact same thing. Instead of giving you in the form of utilities, you are getting money which you will reinvest back into the economy by choosing what and from whom to buy. Both are assets being dispersed by the Government.
All one can do is try and stack the odds. I prefer to say that rather than "making your own luck".
You can equip rings of +1 to dice rolls but most of us don't get weighted dice.
Playing the odds is fine in poker if your pile of chips is big enough to ride out the bad dice rolls, but this doesn't always work in life. There are too many decisions where you're forced to go all in.
I do still largely agree with you, that our decisions influence our future options. But I feel many people who just say "we make our own luck" fail to realize just how much luck played a role in their lives. Survivorship bias and all that.
Given what just happened with PHP a few days so, it's not surprising to me that they're holding their cards close to their chest. People will already be doing their damnedest to reverse engineer the exploit with this meager info.
Introspection isn't a requirement to write an autobiography, and certainly not a biography. Just because someone can't stop talking about themselves and their accomplishments doesn't necessarily mean they analyze their inner thoughts and feelings for deeper meaning.
I would wager that a great many of those people had the introspection to eventually understand where they stood in the world and played the role and probably eventually believed it themselves (because often you must to be successful).
"A great king would not self doubt so I will not self doubt".
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