I'm using a Librem 5 as my daily phone. PureOS is actively developed and based on Debian. Monthly development updates are published here: https://puri.sm/posts/tag/advanced-readers/
Personally, I do not use Android apps on the Librem 5, but Waydroid is available in the PureOS repository. Waydroid is a container-based approach to boot a full Android system on regular GNU/Linux systems running Wayland based desktop environments (like PureOS).
PureOS also provides convergence via Phosh. Convergence means here that the same app can be used on a phone and on a big screen, the GUI adjusts to the available screen size.
Phosh aims to provide a daily-usable, robust and easy to use graphical user environment for mobile devices running mainline Linux. Phosh was originally initiated by developers from Purism for the Librem 5 phone but is nowadays used on many different devices covering smartphones, tablets and convertibles. It has even been seen on laptops.
> Waydroid is a container-based approach to boot a full Android system on regular GNU/Linux systems running Wayland based desktop environments (like PureOS).
No, it's only a partially working form of Android with the privacy/security model largely disabled and poor app compatibility. Waydroid is based on an ancient release of Android and disables the SELinux-based privacy/security model. It doesn't contain apps from each other and has far less protection for the Linux kernel from the apps. It has poor app compatibility and isn't a good approach to running Android in another OS. ChromeOS made a proper better Android container not losing the privacy/security model but migrated to using hardware accelerated virtual machines. It makes a lot more sense to use a VM since current era smartphone hardware fully supports it.
> PureOS also provides convergence via Phosh. Convergence means here that the same app can be used on a phone and on a big screen, the GUI adjusts to the available screen size.
Android Open Source Project has a desktop mode. It has a hardware-based virtualization layer for running desktop Linux applications too including GPU acceleration support.
> Phosh aims to provide a daily-usable, robust and easy to use graphical user environment for mobile devices running mainline Linux.
Android runs fine on mainline Linux. It doesn't require special kernels. That's tied to specific hardware rather than Android.
PureOS has far worse privacy and drastically worse security compared to iOS or AOSP. It's bringing the traditional atrocious privacy and security of desktops to mobile. Librem 5 also combines that with extraordinarily insecure hardware missing basic firmware updates and security protections. As a whole, these make it drastically easier to exploit devices. That includes going back to disk encryption which doesn't work for the average user due to them not using a strong passphrase and not protecting against data extraction with physical access unless the device is turned off.
The way out is for people to support the various Linux phones. These Linux distros need to support and push Android compatibility, so that people can load F-Droid, Aurora, and Obtainium on them and get most of the Android apps they want. The ability to use both Linux and Android apps should satisfy nearly everyone. A strong message of consumer defiance needs to be sent.
The Android family of operating systems and the forks made from the android open source project are all linux distributions, and linux phones.
Using desktop linux phones and trying to force that as a norm would set privacy and security back substantially.
The inverse of what you suggest, which is Android with desktop linux app compatibility, would be a huge step forward, and is already much closer than you might think.
Modern phones have substantially better VM support in the hardware than in previous models, and it is maturing at a very fast rate. We would be able to run linux VMs on Android, paired with desktop mode, with evidence for USB passthrough for an externel GPU in AOSP
There is also evidence that we will be able to put desktop linux app icons on the Android homescreen and using them in an app-like fashion.
This would use the more secure host to run the VM for the less secure OS.
Personally I think that Android AOSP relies too much on the support from google, that has demonstrated to happily use anti-competitive practices and not be afraid to close and centralise AOSP as much as possible.
In a possible future where google decides to continue any new update of Android as closed source, will the community have enough people stepping in to support the development of AOSP? Will google allow the Play Store to run on AOSP? If not, do we have enough apps distributed outside of the Play Store to compensate?
My point is that for an OS that shares more code with desktop Linux (same apps, same DE, same terminal programs, ...) we can rely on the existing Linux community to maintain and advance the OS, and then adapt it for mobile, which I think takes considerably less resources
The existing "linux phones" are much worse for general use than AOSP (putting aside that AOSP doesn't run on any device by itself and looking at projects like grapheneos and lineageos instead). If Google decided to fully close off Anddoid (which would presumably violate some licenses somewhere, though I'm not really familiar with the situation), then conceivably the existing AOSP would be a better starting point. In any case, people tend to complain that each new Android update brings fewer and fewer significant changes; maybe only security patches and driver updates would be needed.
The problem is that the usage of Android should not be at the expense of users and developers rights to choose, freedom, or privacy. With that line crossed, Android becomes an unattractive option.
With an increase in mobile Linux (e.g. Mobian and others), they can and will get better. Customers and developers choice and freedom are being nullified, because there are few other options. That has to change.
Android is not at the expense of either freedom or privacy. Desktop Linux OSs come at the cost of both. It would be better to direct effort to AOSP projects as it is a much better base to build from.
AOSP is just as open-source as desktop Linux (and desktop Linux subsystems reconfigured for use on a phone) is, and has vastly better security.
People sometimes say, "maybe desktop Linux lacks in security, but its privacy is first-rate," which IMHO is silly because if your OS can be completely and totally pwned by your visiting a web page, your opening image file or your using some IDE to inspect some source-code repo, how much privacy do you really have?
GrapheneOS is just as free from data collection by megacorporations as desktop Linux is and has about 1000 times better security.
> Enjoy your freedom, break free from Google and Apple.
You can't escape it.
Your friends and employers and banks use it. The state will soon mandate it for ID. It's the accepted worldwide compute platform, and you're being the nail that sticks out.
Your usage is subject to breaking randomly, being unsupported, losing access or being banned by stepping outside the traffic lines, etc.
They'll use attestation, certs and signing, proprietary APIs, and the scale and might of trillions of dollars to force this.
The only way to "break free" and "enjoy your freedom" is via regulation and -- the better option -- trust busting.
The EU and ASEAN are the best bets for regulation. Getting another Lina Khan that works faster next time is the next best bet for regulation, and possibly a superior outcome that could result in a breakup opening up mobile for true competition.
Being weird in the 0.0001% will not last, nor does it help anyone else escape this monopolistic tyranny.
We need the government to pave the way for dozens of Apple/Google competitors. Or to horizontally split these two companies into dozens of "Baby Bells" that are forced to fight one another.
If a country can provide housing, roads, fire departments, public transit, etc. that might cover 98% of most people's use cases.
But perhaps that country is also fighting wars, committing genocide, perpetrating mass surveillance, propping up an oligarchy, manipulating currency, practicing authoritarianism, etc. ?
There might be points that need to be made and changes that need to be implemented, even if the average citizen or user doesn't directly see the impact or feel immediate exposure.
One of the reasons this is hard is that the general public doesn't understand the greater second and third order effects. And even if they do, they are typically inarticulate at expressing how this is dysregulated and dysfunctional to the broader economy and capitalism.
Luckily, there are plenty of very wealthy people that are disenfranchised by this that will loudly take up arms. Domestic competitors, business leaders, other impacted industries, etc. That's how and why this will change.
Tim Sweeney isn't the only one interested in this.
"I live in a place that hasn't seen progress and still uses physical cash." Isn't really useful to those of us who live in places that don't even use cash. Also, I don't really want to go back to using physical cash thanks.
I don’t have an issue with my bank tracking my purchases. In fact I like it. Not everyone wants to live in a constant state of looking over your shoulder. If we’ve reached that point the problem is not the banks, but the other parties. Going back to old technology is not a solution I want. Regulating the problem areas would be better.
Fully agree, I like not having to deal with cache. Fully digital payments and contactless payment are so much nicer than cash (in my opinion). I just want to be able to do contactless payments on my GrapheneOS phone and not get locked out of it because Google decided it's a good way of forcing out competition.
Hasn’t seen progress? Portland has a fantastic transit system and all the amenities you could want from a modern city. Yet cash is common, a few of the best places are even cash only.
I’ve found more places going cashless in Portland than are cash only. The one cash only place I regularly visited for decades finally gave in and started accepting cards.
That is strange, because Oregon has required cash to be allowed as a form of payment statewide since 2022 (SB 1565). There are a few exceptions but most public facing businesses are covered. Maybe they will do cash if asked but they don’t make it obvious?
Maybe I am lucky in the USA, but every bank I’ve ever done business with can be accessed through a PC and web browser. If any of my banks should decide to remove that option, I just move over to one of the other thousands of banks in the USA.
I keep seeing this, but I've never signed into a single one of my banks, mortgage companies, stock brokers, or credit card companies on my phone. The phone might be used to get a code for 2FA via text, but that's the extent of it. Everything is done on my PC through a dedicated browser specifically for financial purposes. This applies to Chase, Fidelity, Schwab, Wells Fargo, Marcus, Morgan Stanley, Amex, and more. So theoretically there's no reason a Linux OS on a phone can't do any of these things without Google or Apple by simply masquerading as a PC.
I think the disconnect comes from the European vs the US perspective. In Europe, banks in many countries require smartphone apps for 2FA (unless you still have one of the old authenticators that you can hold on until the battery dies). One of the reasons is that PSD2 requires two-factor authentication:
My guess is that given that banks are liable in many cases of account compromise where the user did not do anything wrong, they generally don't use SMS or e-mail auth because it is relatively easy to compromise (e.g. no or bad encryption, downgrade attacks, etc). Also, doing 2FA through a smartphone app is much cheaper for them than keeping a fleet of authenticators running.
Luckily, it looks like PSD3 is going to require access without a smartphone too:
Require payment services providers to ensure that all users can benefit from methods to perform SCA which are adapted to their needs and situations and, in particular, that those methods do not depend on one single technology, device or mechanism, for instance on the possession of a smartphone.
I use a smartphone less than most people. Things I already could not do without a Google or Apple phone:
Use some banking apps. In fact I cannot use one banking app I otherwise would because it will only work if you have no non-store apps installed at all.
A regulatory requirement to prove my ID without using the mobile app would be a 20 min+ each way drive (plus walking, time doing it etc.) to another town.
> The EU and ASEAN are the best bets for regulation.
Did you read the recent HN stories about the EU's age verification app that will only work on attested phones? Lots of other governments (EU and non-EU) doping similar things.
> We need the government to pave the way for dozens of Apple/Google competitors. Or to horizontally split these two companies into dozens of "Baby Bells" that are forced to fight one another.
I have very little confidence that is likely. Politically governments are far more pro-big business and anti-competition than they have been in a long time.
> Being weird in the 0.0001% will not last, nor does it help anyone else escape this monopolistic tyranny.
Every single person who does not go along, is a a political and commercial argument not to remove alternatives. If I use a website and an app to bank or buy something, it pushes up the stats for the web app vs the mobile app.
> EU's age verification app that will only work on attested phones?
This is not a single unified front. Multiple battles are ongoing simultaneously.
There are strong proponents of anti-monopoly and digital sovereignty in government, just as there are those that want to push for a surveillance state.
Here are some recent and non-insignificant things that the EU and UK have required Google and Apple do:
- Support "side loaded" apps (as Google works to remove the ability)
- Standardize on USB-C
- Force alternative payments platforms
- Force Apple to stop requiring WebKit and WebKit runtimes
They're just getting started!
> I have very little confidence that is likely.
I have a great deal of confidence that the world is ready for this. Every non-US nation wants to break the stranglehold US tech has on their countries. The EU, UK, and ASEAN have a tremendous amount of power here.
We also have a huge reservoir of political support for breaking up tech monopolies inside the US. Lots of high profile politicians are ready to go to work on this, on both sides of the aisle.
Moreover, you have every single other company on the planet that wants this duopoly fractured. Entire industries that salivate over this.
It's just a matter of time and making sure we make these points articulate and loudly heard.
This is far more effective than trying to hack your device and proclaim "year of linux on android 2030". That doesn't work. It's a miserable experience and doesn't help a single other person.
> This is far more effective than trying to hack your device and proclaim "year of linux on android 2030". That doesn't work.
It doesn't work for you. There are lots of people in this thread dailying a Linux device, it's a perfectly valid choice if you're not conjoined at the hip with mobile apps. Your assertion that it helps nobody is obviously dishonest projection.
Now, PostmarketOS won't rescue the billions of apathetic people on the planet, but why should it? Those people will sabotage themselves over and over again for the sake of convenience. Even banning iPhones/Android in your country won't fix the issue, we saw that in China. Your only solution is to advocate for yourself, you can't rely on the greater hacker consciousness to instinctively protect your user experience.
>Your friends and employers and banks use it. The state will soon mandate it for ID.
You just buy a separate, cheap Android/Google phone for all these things. Emphasis on buying the cheapest one possible, so Google and Apple aren't making much money off you.
Yup. I have not tried using a non-GoogleAndroid or iOS smartphone, but what you describe perfectly reflects what I experienced when I went started to work for a large employer 16 y ago. I had been using Linux as my main OS on desktops and mobile computers for at least 15 y by then. Slowly the grind of hacking my system to access the VPN, check email on their Exchange server, open MS Word docs.. it all pushed me to MacOS from about 2015 - 2021. Eventually I could not abide by Apple's incompatible hold on my data, Gatekeeper (I really hate the concept that they must approve software I want to run on my own hardware) and the unrepairability of their machines.. so I am now on Win 11. Right now, considering the trade offs, I think this is the best choice. I see a lot of people extolling Linux lately, so maybe it is time to try going back.
Back OT, smartphones were always less open than the general purpose computers of yore. And it looks like they are increasingly a requirement for participating in many societies. In general I don't find this a good thing, but have little faith that regulators will 'solve' is because they have their own pitfalls (recent examples from EU: age verification and chat control).
It will be a long tough uphill battle, but digital freedom is possible.
Purism is for example providing the Librem 5 phone with PureOS. Closing the app gap is big challenge, but I use the Librem 5 as my daily phone. Yes, I may have some inconvenience, but I have freedom, and the software is getting better and better.
You got to take a small toll on comfort if you want anything not backed by a huge evil corporation to have a chance.
Before it was Linux and now it's Ubuntu Touch, sure it's not perfect but it's a very much usable system which needs more people to try it out as their daily driver. I made the shift a month or so ago because I don't want to have to choose between two evils.
How can I use an OS that's not iOS on Android as a daily driver? 99% of what I do on my phone is chat to my friends and pay for things, which I won't be able to do at all with the free OSes. I might as well go without a phone at that point.
> 800$ for 720p screen and 3GBs of RAM
> Can't even use a bank app with it
I'm sorry, but this will never see adoption wide enough to be useful.
I can't imagine paying 800 and still having to carry a "backup" phone for payments, public transit and such.
At that cost I'd think more about seeking out a second hand phone that's survived and has good parts availability/repairability to keep it going. It would seem with both you're in the situation where google doesn't about you but at least the phone would be semi-smart enough to do some tasks and less drain on the wallet.
i read the exact same comments about the Librem 5 on HN back in about 2017/18. hope they'll continue with progress but it is giving, "This year is the year of the Linux [phone, desktop]!"
Purism is a shit company. It took 6 years to get a refund for my Libem 5 order (it was ready to ship after 3 years). I had to file a complaint with my credit card company.
Other people who paid over $1,000 got their shit out of date phones before me! Fuck Purism. They can go die in a fucking cesspit.
