Can you please stop attacking another Android distro under the umbrella of a project (the Calyx Institute) that has done a lot of good for others? It makes you look like an a**hole.
There's plenty of room in this space for multiple visions of what a more-secure, more-private Android OS looks like. There's gradations of privacy and security and some users might prefer your gradient, whereas others might prefer CalyxOS'.
You might try getting your act together and reach across the aisle so the world can benefit rather than this frankly stupid and childish infighting.
And to pre-empt your honestly terrible, "but they started it", I don't see anyone from Calyx giving the mouth you're giving them, repeatedly, in this thread about their product. So please just stop.
No, giving criticism of an OS is not attacking it. You'll see that strcat only responded to places where GrapheneOS was mentioned. You'll see that there was misinformation being spread about GrapheneOS, whether intentionally or unintentionally, that originates from the Calyx community. Just look at their Matrix rooms and what their supporters/influencers say about GrapheneOS.
Bundling a bunch of apps and integrating proprietary corporate services with privileges unavailable to other apps is not privacy, sorry.
If you have the ear of strcat, I urge you to to talk to them about this kind of paranoid conspiracy thinking that leads them to directly accuse me (and others in this thread) of being a co-conspirator in a vast plot to undermine GrapheneOS. It's fantastic thinking and it damages the reputation of what is otherwise a gift to the community.
I have been on Hacker News a long time, posting on everything from sex worker rights to Telegram to Emacs. I don't know about your Matrix room, I've never visited it. I have no interest in impersonating anyone save myself.
> You'll see that there was misinformation being spread about GrapheneOS, whether intentionally or unintentionally, that originates from the Calyx community.
I don't see that anywhere here in this thread. I see a thread that should have been a space for celebrating a cool more-private, more-secure Android project being hijacked because its competitor's lead developer believes themselves to be the target of a conspiracy. A conspiracy that isn't even occurring in the very thread they're engaged in:
> I've only posted here to defend us from malicious misinformation being spread by you folks.
From who? Nobody here is doing this! Especially maliciously.
If you think CalyxOS is implementing a feature that is harming users, you might try and communicate with their community in a cooperative, direct way, rather than this self-destructive crusade GrapheneOS is airing publicly.
I think you and strcat owe everyone here in this thread an apology.
>If you have the ear of strcat, I urge you to to talk to them about this kind of paranoid conspiracy thinking that leads them to directly accuse me (and others in this thread) of being a co-conspirator in a vast plot to undermine GrapheneOS. It's fantastic thinking and it damages the reputation of what is otherwise a gift to the community.
It's not conspiratoral thinking. It's plainly obvious if you go into the CalyxOS Matrix rooms that the leaders often spread misinformation about GrapheneOS or allow it to flourish. They also spread misinformation about CalyxOS to promote it, such as claiming signature spoofing has no security drawback as implemented on CalyxOS.
You don't see other OSes and projects spreading misinformation. Likewise, GrapheneOS doesn't attack LineageOS, /e/, etc. we don't discourage people from using them, except saying that yes, they are insecure, so be aware of that. We don't spread attacks and other projects are free to criticize GrapheneOS for legitimate things.
However, criticizing it for legitimate things is far different from concern trolling in the GrapheneOS rooms, getting banned, and then portraying it in the Calyx rooms as GrapheneOS being toxic, which is a common tactic. You can see this using the Logbot service: just look up "concern troll" in the GrapheneOS rooms, see what comes up, and compare it with the messages around the same time in the Calyx rooms. It's quite evident. Of course, I highly doubt you'll sincerely do that considering you're simply calling us paranoid, but to anyone watching that's what you should do.
>I have been on Hacker News a long time, posting on everything from sex worker rights to Telegram to Emacs. I don't know about your Matrix room, I've never visited it. I have no interest in impersonating anyone save myself.
No one said that you impersonated anyone. The point strcat brought about impersonation was that a person from the Calyx community went and impersonated the Bromite developer, attempting to start conflict between Bromite and GrapheneOS.
>I don't see that anywhere here in this thread. I see a thread that should have been a space for celebrating a cool more-private, more-secure Android project being hijacked because its competitor's lead developer believes themselves to be the target of a conspiracy. A conspiracy that isn't even occurring in the very thread they're engaged in:
CalyxOS isn't particularly secure but that's beside the point. That's not the issue and it's fine to not be security-focused. The issue is that the Calyx community and developers consistently spreads misinformation. Just look at what one of them is doing right now with microG.
>From who? Nobody here is doing this! Especially maliciously.
Says the person calling people paranoid for trying to stop misinformation being spread. You can see what people are doing in this thread whether maliciously or nonmaliciously.
>If you think CalyxOS is implementing a feature that is harming users, you might try and communicate with their community in a cooperative, direct way, rather than this self-destructive crusade GrapheneOS is airing publicly.
And people have, and they get banned from their community.
> The point strcat brought about impersonation was that a person from the Calyx community went and impersonated the Bromite developer, attempting to start conflict between Bromite and GrapheneOS.
The chat logs[0] say different.
I don't see how one person joining a room on Telegram somehow implicates the whole project in some sort of conspiracy to attack / spread misinformation about Bromite or GrapheneOS.
Your comment leaves out the danger of advertising security and privacy when you cripple those things.
All open source projects should be able to take GP's criticism, dev of "competitor" or otherwise — specifically because they're not products — they're public projects.
Both projects should absolutely be encouraged — and steered, if a user knows a better way.
> Your comment leaves out the danger of advertising security and privacy when you cripple those things.
Nobody is doing this. Calyx is taking a measured approach, as they see it, and is making commensurate claims: "CalyxOS is an Android mobile operating system that puts privacy and security into the hands of everyday users." Right on their website.
I am vehemently against absolutisms on security. Where that road goes is straight into a dick measuring contest and it's ugly. You only have to look at Moxie's terrible public behavior to see what the fallout from that approach looks like.
It's a poison in the security industry and it needs to be called out and stopped now. It rewards grown adults for acting like children. It's enough now.
> You only have to look at Moxie's terrible public behavior to see what the fallout from that approach looks like.
Cite Torvalds' absolutism on not breaking userspace, too, while you're at it..
These projects are all forwarding their missions; it's not because they listened to your criticism about being too absolutist on goals they are passionate about.
The "dick measuring" you're seeing is how any niche group quickly scrambles to sift out the "truth". Geopolitics research threads, when airplanes go down mysteriously, new longboard gets released, whatever — the smartest people go back and forth with (at?) each other¹ until some form of consensus is reached, and the "herd immunity" or general knowledge of the community is improved.
¹(sometimes with far less civility than in this case!)
> about being too absolutist on goals they are passionate about.
Not at all what I mean when I say I am vehemently against absolutisms on security. Any claim to superiority on security and subsequent trashing of others is rotten because it's not kind, not compassionate, not conducive to cooperation, the single greatest tool we have as humankind. We don't need more division in this space and we don't need people with a headful of their egos being affirmed for bad human behavior.
There are better ways of being critical of others without being an a**hole in public. That's the thrust of my argument. We'd all do well to hold these people to a better standard of behavior.
It can be plainly see that we were responding to the brigade of attacks from the CalyxOS group involved in spreading misinformation about GrapheneOS across platforms. You're responding to one of them above.
You don't see LineageOS, /e/ or countless other operating systems constantly spreading misinformation about GrapheneOS. It's only CalyxOS. Others are not doing this. I' not sure why you folks can't resist the urge to attack us with false claims any time either OS is mentioned anywhere.
All you've done is expose your paranoia with this (and the other down thread) comment. I'm not affiliated with the vast conspiracy you've concocted in your head.
I'll tell you what though: I see people who think they can throw their clout around (DevOps Engineer from Denmark, hi) every day in my line of work. I make a habit of telling them they better act like adults if they hope to cut it.
Look through my comments history and you'll see I don't take kindly to people like Moxie, like you, thinking you get to push people around because you think you're better. That time is over. You can lord over your tiny fiefdom all you want but the rest of the industry is done taking it.
The future is human cooperation and dignity, not this paranoid, egoic trip you're wrapped up tight in.
I suggest you work together with the broader community and don't fall into useless, divisive attacks on people engaged in the shared enterprise of a more-secure, more-private OS.
There's plenty of room in this space for multiple visions of what a more-secure, more-private Android OS looks like. There's gradations of privacy and security and some users might prefer your gradient, whereas others might prefer CalyxOS'.
You might try getting your act together and reach across the aisle so the world can benefit rather than this frankly stupid and childish infighting.
And to pre-empt your honestly terrible, "but they started it", I don't see anyone from Calyx giving the mouth you're giving them, repeatedly, in this thread about their product. So please just stop.