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There's also:

* Law enforcement simply asks nicely: can render all message content for the last 1-7 years



The Stored Communications Act makes disclosing the contents of messages without a search warrant unlawful


Just like the NSA spying on Americans is unlawful [0] the FBI terrorizing political movements is unlawful [1] or the CIA operating in the US is unlawful [2]

Yet, I'm pretty sure all these are still happening, to a certain degree, to this day.

[0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-nsa-spying-idUSKBN25T...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CHAOS


Larger point would be if it's obtained unlawfully it can't be used in a court of law against you.

Recent cases:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/pkppqk/court-throws-out-mess...

https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252503524/Berlin-court-f...


That is little consolation in the court of public opinion, where FBI management and the Justice Department have demonstrated willingness and capability to hold mob court and manipulate public opinion outside the formal legal system. They will SWAT you themselves if they like, on live TV.


Parallel Construction makes this a technicality/nuisance, not a show stopper.


came here to say this.


Generally only if you have the means to hire a good lawyer.


The NSA doesn't need to illegally spy on Americans when an ally can do it for them and then share the data legally.

https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukusa/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes


That's not really how it works. Sure, it is also a way to circumvent such local legislature, but for that to work American allies would need to run actual surveillance structures in the US mainland proper out in the open..

You know, like the US does in the countries of it's "allies" like Germany [0]

Do you really think the US would allow German intelligence agencies to build whole complexes, plugged right into the US's largest IPX?

That's why this situation is not nearly as "symbiotic" as it's often made out to be. At best that applies to Five Eyes countries, and even there only to a very limited degree as no Five Eyes member as as much foreign presence as the US.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Examples_of_industrial...


To this rhetorical question, a resounding “yes” answer. There is credible suggestion that GCHQ has been invited to operate US facilities on US soil for this explicit purpose.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/aug/01/nsa-paid-gch...


The people responsible for investigating and prosecuting such crimes have some not so great incentives to avoid doing so and keep the whole thing secret though, don't they?

And then when they get caught, they do this:

https://cdt.org/insights/the-truth-about-telecom-immunity/


Sounds like an easy way to have your case tossed out in court.

It's funny how much this differs from my own personal experience with law enforcement. The friends I know are timid as hell and don't do anything without a warrant just to stay on the safe side- even if they probably don't need one.


Good luck with that. In my case there was a ton of violations of the SCA. Violations of the SCA are only actionable if they are "constitutional" in nature. (That essentially means that if the government indict you based on information they illegally gathered through violating the SCA but the information did not belong to you - say it belonged your wife or business partner - then you can't get the information suppressed/excluded in court)

In my case the government did violate the SCA and my constitutional rights, but two judges have looked at it and both stated the same answer - the police must be allowed to commit crimes to gather evidence. Next stop: appeal courts.


Yep, the courts side with law enforcement. The whole 'truth comes out in a fair fight' is completely undermined by this. The system protects itself above all else.

I was involved with a case that sounds similar - the judges don't care about your rights and blatantly missapply the law. Also, magistrates are also complete BS, and don't even know basic legal stuff. I had one think I called him prejudice when requesting a case be dismissed with prejudice... Complaints do nothing. There's no real oversight, leading to a completely incompetent system.


> There's no real oversight, leading to a completely incompetent system.

It's the system working as intended. If you want something that looks like justice, you'll need substantial wealth to get it.


You have to generally assume that the FBI and other government agencies are competent. My baseline, starting assumption is that if everyone in the US was too scared to use programs like PRISM, they wouldn't have been built.

So these kinds of claims just don't make any sense in a world where we know that government has conducted surveillance without a warrant, and where we know that the FBI has built entire programs designed to make it easier for them to conduct surveillance without a warrant.

From the article posted that you're replying to:

> What Administration officials tend to obscure is that what they seek is not immunity for future cooperation with lawful surveillance, but rather telecom immunity for assisting with unlawful surveillance conducted from October 2001 through January 17, 2007, as part of the warrantless wiretap program initiated by the White House.

I'm not sure I understand what your implication is. I don't understand how it's possible to respond to an article that is about telecoms seeking immunity for previous unlawful actions by saying, "the government/businesses would be way too scared to do anything unlawful." I mean... obviously not, they sought immunity for it. They wouldn't just randomly do that, the most likely explanation is that they made immunity a pressing issue because they thought they needed it.

It does not seem to me that the optimistic world you describe and the observable actions and lobbying efforts of companies/administrations line up with each other.


I'm just glad you're here to stick up for your friends without any corroboration or linking story. It's just a good thing to do.


Being charitable, let’s assume his friends work as homicide or theft detectives. If so, they need a high standard for admissible evidence to build their case.

If on the other hand his friends are street cops tasked with clearing a corner of drug dealers because some neighbor complained to their council person who complained to the police chief then those cops don’t necessarily care about extrajudicial activities.

Having been harassed by street cops and interacted with homicide detectives, I can tell you they vary tremendously in professionalism.


They definitely need a high standard for admissible evidence, that doesn't stop them from purchasing large amounts of data from all-too-willing communications companies and using parallel construction to build their case once they find out what happened via warantless spying.


They can also query these messages to see if there is something on the dealers they get paid from and then warn them if something comes up. It works both ways, no?


Cybercrime. Lots of scams and child abuse.


The really smart cops get the tips using “less than legal” means, then walk back and reconstruct using legal evidence.



"Sounds like an easy way to have your case tossed out in court."

This is terribly naive in my experience.


Imagine a world where the entire law enforcement complex followed the law. What a world.


Let's be honest, how often do people share with their pals about how they commit crimes, or are less than scrupulous, at work, assuming their pals aren't criminals, as well? People tend to keep things like that a secret, even from people that are close to them.


EO12333 makes it lawful without a warrant.


> EO12333

An EO making it lawful for a federal agency to collect doesn't mean it is lawful for a private company to disclose, it doesn't change when a company is permitted to disclose the content of messages under the SCA


I mean, this whole discussion is moot since nobody will enforce things like this, especially against themselves.


You are correct. There’s also varying 2-party/1-party consent required depending on the state in the absence of a warrant. But unless you’re targeting the devices, you will not get much at all from service providers. They simply don’t keep it contrary to what I read here.


The reality is that many times the only barrier to sensitive information is a shared login which many people know and a statement that users represent that they have legal authority to access that info.


Tell that to the FAANG companies that provide white glove access to authorities any time they ask.


* Law enforcement wants to stalk ex-girlfriend: can render all message content for the last 1-7 years


Companies also sell data to law enforcement.


Many tech companies even develop nice portals for law enforcement to use where they can request and view data, with or without a warrant or subpoena.




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