To bring up the obvious, I can't pass judgment on a woman who's had casual sex if I never know about it.
The worst side effect of casual sex is its cultural effect. "Hookup culture" is extremely debased and elevates deviant behavior to accepted status, if not a social requirement in some circles (e.g. being inexperienced, even for moral reasons, is looked down upon by many women in New York). However, if the sex is entirely private, and doesn't involve the woman I end up marrying, then I don't know about it, it's none of my business, and I don't care.
What I don't like is living in a culture that engenders distrust and dislike between the sexes, and encourages dishonorable behavior in young people. It seems like a lot of young American men behave unscrupulously and rack up a number not because they want to do so, but because of social pressures; they know most women won't respect them if they aren't at least as experienced as they are.
To bring up the even more obvious, maybe you shouldn't be "passing judgement" at all.
"The worst side effect of casual sex is its cultural effect."
Mere speculation.
""Hookup culture" is extremely debased"
In your opinion, perhaps; I have no problem with it, and seems natural enough. Let people do what they will.
"and elevates deviant behavior to accepted status, if not a social requirement in some circles"
I would love to hear why you think sex is "deviant". It seems natural and healthy to me; after all, we were all born with the equipment built right in.
"being inexperienced, even for moral reasons, is looked down upon by many women in New York"
Being inexperienced in any important skill is good reason to be looked down upon. Your "moral reasons" are likely baseless. Why don't you try going and getting a job and see what they think of your inexperience, "even for moral reasons".
"However, if the sex is entirely private, and doesn't involve the woman I end up marrying, then I don't know about it, it's none of my business"
Even if you do know about it, it's still none of your business. Who do you think you are?
"What I don't like is living in a culture that engenders distrust and dislike between the sexes"
I have the feeling that the "distrust and dislike" you are evidently experiencing has nothing to do with culture and everything to do with women learning about your ridiculous beliefs. You've certainly attracted your fair share of "distrust and dislike" right here, and most of us aren't even women.
"and encourages dishonorable behavior in young people"
That's your opinion, and yours alone. I doubt you can back it up with anything other than "gut feeling".
"It seems like a lot of young American men behave unscrupulously and rack up a number not because they want to do so, but because of social pressures"
This is just laughable. I assure you, guys sleep with women because they want sex, not because of social pressure to "rack up numbers". And also, I love how you give a free pass to men (peer pressure!) but women are "immoral".
"they know most women won't respect them if they aren't at least as experienced as they are."
That's right. Women want to be treated right and they aren't interested in some hopeless n00b who doesn't know what to do. Like, say, you.
What a bunch of confused, regurgitated nonsense. You need to stop making foolish excuses and just go and get laid already.
I'm not going to reply to most of this, but a couple points stick out.
I would love to hear why you think sex is "deviant". It seems natural and healthy to me; after all, we were all born with the equipment built right in.
I think casual sex is deviant, not sex as a whole. The "equipment" may be "built right in", but its purpose is not to be used lightly and indiscriminately. After all, it can make babies.
Look around at the sorts of people who have a lot of casual sex. Do you seriously want them to be highly represented in humanity's genetic future, and the sorts of relationships they would have if bound together for 18 years to comprise the environment in which the next generation is raised?
Being inexperienced in any important skill is good reason to be looked down upon.
You're conflating "inexperienced" with "unskilled". I don't think there's much of a correlation. If anything, people who are overexperienced tend to be shitty lovers, because they've never need to develop any skills. If someone's that good, why would s/he have slept with 20 other people and still not found someone who came back and wanted to make it a relationship?
"The "equipment" may be "built right in", but its purpose is not to be used lightly and indiscriminately."
This is just your opinion. You offer nothing to back it up.
"Look around at the sorts of people who have a lot of casual sex. Do you seriously want them to be highly represented in humanity's genetic future"
Yes? Of course? Why ever not? They are humans, after all?
"You're conflating "inexperienced" with "unskilled". I don't think there's much of a correlation."
The two words are practically synonyms. One gains skill through experience. Again, go try and get a job and use that line.
"If anything, people who are overexperienced tend to be shitty lovers, because they've never need to develop any skills."
Is it opposites day? Do you need a dictionary? They have developed skills through experience, which is the only way skills can be developed. You are utterly fooling yourself if you think otherwise.
"If someone's that good, why would s/he have slept with 20 other people and still not found someone who came back and wanted to make it a relationship?"
Because they like sex and feel no need to make it a relationship. You are confusing your own priorities with those of others. They value their freedom and do not want a relationship.
No, because it would be tiring and pointless, and I'm never going to convince you that you're wrong anyway.
The two words are practically synonyms. One gains skill through experience. Again, go try and get a job and use that line.
Quality of experience matters a lot more than quantity. Having had sex with 10 or more different people does not make a person good in bed. In fact, it probably means that he or she sucks for two reasons. 1. People who can get meet their sexual goals easily have no incentive to learn how to do anything right. 2. If he were talented at all, he'd probably be able to find something more fulfilling, which would mean more long-term relationships and less time to rack up a number.
You definitely could convince me, if there was any substance to what you said. I'm highly rational and you can find numerous examples of me swallowing my pride and conceding a point. You offer nothing, though, except mere opinions. Since it's you who seeks to impose guidelines on others' behaviour, the onus is upon you to justify your claims.
Quality of experience matters a lot more than quantity.
Do you ever get the feeling that a lot of your beliefs seem to be suspiciously self-serving?
Having had sex with 10 or more different people does not make a person good in bed.
All other things being equal, having had sex with 10 people is objectively better than having had sex with 1 person. I don't even know why I have to point such an obvious, indisputable fact. I mean - it's just laughable. You might as well tell me that having 10 times the programming experience does not make you a better programmer. Well, I guess occasionally it doesn't but .. 99 times out of 100 it sure as fuck does, actually.
In fact, it probably means that he or she sucks for two reasons.
Oh man, here we go ..
1. People who can get meet their sexual goals easily have no incentive to learn how to do anything right.
You know, this is utterly laughable and I am beginning to suspect you have no sexual experience whatsoever. Firstly, they would learn through pure trial and error. Secondly, of course they want to give a good "performance", for reasons of simple pride.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
2. If he were talented at all, he'd probably be able to find something more fulfilling, which would mean more long-term relationships and less time to rack up a number.
Again you wrongly assume that everyone else shares your priorities. I know many people for whom variety and meeting new people is more "fulfilling" than the drudgery and same-same of a long term relationship. Racking up a number has nothing to do with it. You just don't understand.
Your beliefs are nothing but a self-constructed delusion to explain away your lack of poon. You can't get it, so you convince yourself you don't want it, so you can maintain your self-esteem. Now I understand this post you've started is nothing but a new angle on the same thing - now you're trying to construct a new excuse for yourself, that you don't want girls because you're working on your startup, and that's why, not because you couldn't get any!
"You offer nothing, though, except mere opinions."
You are just offering your opinions, too, which is because you and time_management simply have fundamental disagreements about what is important, which makes most of your repartee pointless.
I'm glad to see that you've resorted to personal attacks. Perhaps it's because you secretly know that you're doing something wrong, and I'm striking a nerve.
If it matters, I actually have had a fairly satisfying love life. However, I've never saw fit to fill my single spells with the heartless and self-serving debasement of women. Not that my personal life is any of your business, but I thought you should know.
Your behavior (if it's anything like what you espouse online) is digging you into a deep hole. Enjoy being unable to find a worthwhile partner for the long term, and dying alone.
I've never saw fit to fill my single spells with the heartless and self-serving debasement of women.
Groan. Your stupid off-topic comments about this are really messing up my /newcomments page. Has anyone made a HN killfile greasemonkey type thing for kooks like you?
I do have one bit of advice... You could drive your camaro from Long Island down to Alabama, and hang out in the parking lot of the high schools where they are having a "purity ball." There you may find the women you have been dreaming of.
bullshit. this is exactly what you wanted to happen. a soapbox for your insecurity.
No. I wanted to see an honest discussion about handling relationships in a way that improves, rather than diminishes, one's productivity.
rather than hatred for your viewpoint, maybe people think you suck because you're making posts about penis size on "hacker news."
The conversation didn't start out that way. However, I felt like a lot of people didn't "get" why large volumes of casual sex are bad, so I got explicit in my description of the harmful effects.
sho, you downvoted me, but do you see what I mean now? Maybe I didn't lay it out as clearly as you did.
But my personal theory is he just posts this stuff to stir up shit, and see if he can convince some other marginalized guys to swing to his worldview, rather than any kind of actual question he wants answered.
Every time the topic comes up (or he brings it up), he goes on and on about how American women are worthless this, and Sex and the City that.
It's a twisted attempt at pedagogy (translation: trolling, with a purpose), not Hacker News.
I upvoted you on your next comment. Of course I agree with your sentiments (in this instance), I just don't like the use of labels in general. Nothing personal.
Even so, I don't think "sexist" and "mysogynist" really cover it. It's more just general confusion and misguided thinking, the women-related stuff just seems like a sort of byproduct or artefact. I won't speculate on reasons, I'm not a psychologist.
Anyway, yes, I also suspect a single-issue pedagogue with an axe to grind. Ah well, c'est la vie. And no, it's definitely not Hacker News.
(edited to remove badly-explained, extreme example of voting standards)
I'm not calling for anyone to be banned. But don't worry too much about a few numbers on a website; it doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things.
I think it's a big part of why many young men play for variety and quantity instead of trying to form relationships. No man wants to be significantly less experienced than the woman he ends up marrying; that's just emasculating, and she almost certainly won't respect him.
The worst side effect of casual sex is its cultural effect. "Hookup culture" is extremely debased and elevates deviant behavior to accepted status, if not a social requirement in some circles (e.g. being inexperienced, even for moral reasons, is looked down upon by many women in New York). However, if the sex is entirely private, and doesn't involve the woman I end up marrying, then I don't know about it, it's none of my business, and I don't care.
What I don't like is living in a culture that engenders distrust and dislike between the sexes, and encourages dishonorable behavior in young people. It seems like a lot of young American men behave unscrupulously and rack up a number not because they want to do so, but because of social pressures; they know most women won't respect them if they aren't at least as experienced as they are.