Despite Telegram's shortcomings in not using well supported crypto and not having default end to end encryption on all conversations. Their clients for both iOS and mac are amazing in that they are native.
And unlike WhatsApp you don't need to carry your phone with you all the time just to send a message to someone on desktop.
Their bot API is also really rich. I am thinking of rewriting some of the Alfred workflows I wrote in Go as Telegram bots. For example I always wanted my Web Searches workflow (https://github.com/nikitavoloboev/alfred-web-searches) be present on my phone in some way. It seems I can actually do just that and reuse the Go code I wrote already.
I agree, without taking security into consideration, Telegram's user experience is great.
The clients are very nice, as the data is stored on the server, you can access it from any device (great on desktops and tablets, I hate not being able to send whatsapp messages from my iPad) and it doesn't fill your phone with the stupid videos people send to groups (many of my family members ask me why their phones are full and WhatsApp is always the culprit).
Furthermore, Telegram Channels are great. It is all the advantages of Twitter, without the noise. Some Spanish journalists that I like are starting to create Telegram Channels and it is a great experience to just receive their messages, without the RTs, and angry answers of other users.
Furthermore, I have a Channel myself which I use to publish opinions. It has only 10 followers, which are friends of mine which I know will appreciate. I really like the experience.
Also, Telegram has great integration with IFTTT, which I use a lot!
I'm also a big fan of the bot API. I think it's very elegant in its approach to solving the problem of spam (bots can't really initiate chats, they can only respond to messages, or post to chats / groups where they were directly invited by a human).
The performance and convenience of their desktop app is also very good. As a "I'll use it if I have to" WhatsApp user, I find having to re-authenticate the web app basically every time I launch it, and it constantly complaining about me switching off WhatsApp on my phone is almost a dealbreaker.
Also, Telegram has private keys stored on their server, and recently the Russian government demanded they hand over the key otherwise they will be banned from Russia. This can only happen because the key is on their server. I think that's a big deal.
WhatsApp desktop is an Electron app that is leagues behind the Telegram clients. It also requires your phone to be on and connected to the network. It's not comparable at all.
As far as I know, secret Telegram chats don't have a private key stored anywhere but your phone.
Wire[1], another E2EE chat application (using libsignal, just like WhatsApp and Signal itself), does not require this. It also has open-sourced its client and server applications[2], and is in the process of documenting how to run them yourself.
It also has a pretty solid API[3].
One downside for JS haters, though, is that while the application isn't a wrapper for the site it is still Electron.
In Matrix, E2EE isn't enabled by default[1], and the option to enable it is in fact marked with a warning that it comes with potentially unwanted side-effects. This isn't the same, and the arguments that call recommending Telegram for E2EE encryption disingenuous apply to Matrix/Riot recommendations too.
One other issue I have with Matrix is the fact that they're in the process of completely rewriting their reference implementation in Go despite the fact that - as far as I remember - the first one, in Python, isn't entirely complete[2]. Combined with the app-bridge song and dance[3] there's too much in flux for me to recommend in good conscience.
Finally, and perhaps most importantly (speaking as a "regular" user - the type needed to achieve mass adoption), the client is horrendous. This is especially apparent when compared with Wire, but I'd go as far as saying it's apparent even when compared with some IRC clients. At least Signal's UI/UX is passable. Encryption didn't catapult Telegram to 200 million monthly users. A slick UI, a half-decent UX, and some good marketing did.
The difference is that there is no way to even enable encryption on Telegram desktop clients.
Edit: Aside from that, while the Telegram UI is nice, it doesn't even try to compete with the interfaces commonly found in IRC clients (i.e. no bubbles, one or more lines per message, can actually fit more than a handful of messages without scrolling, and so on... see qwebirc).
1) So it’s true that Matrix is still in beta and E2E is not yet on by default on private rooms (but we’re working on it).
2) Synapse (python impl) is however “complete” (for implementing the Matrix 0.3 spec at least, and newer stuff) and has been for several years. We should spell this out better in the README.
The reason for Dendrite (go impl) is to escape the python GIL and switch to a multidb/multiwriter architecture to keep up with the load on massive HSes like matrix.org’s.
3. I have no idea what the “app-bridge” song and dance is that you’re complaining about: bridges are one of the most powerful and fun bits of Matrix. Perhaps you don’t like the config used to provision them? I’m not sure how this impacts normal users.
4. You may need to give more info on why you feel Riot is “horrendous” so we can fix specifics :)
Any ideas if they're planning on doing something about not being able to see conversation history on new devices? That was the limitation that drove me away the last time I tried it out.
As far as I'm aware they consider it to be a feature, and I don't particularly disagree. The rationale is that if somehow someone else manages to add a device to your account (which you get notified about on your other devices), they cannot see your chat history up until the moment the device was linked.
Once they're all linked you don't have this issue again so it's kind of a one-time thing.
But why not let me make that decision? You're assuming
- a) everyone has a phone number
- b) everyone has ONE phone number
- c) everyone has a phone
- d) everyone has ONE phone
- e) said phones have a good battery life, lots of storage, and are always on a fast unlimited internet.
- f) you want to give your phone number to everyone you want to talk to
For some of my chats, I'd want that sure, and the price in those cases is cheap.
For many other cases, no, I'm not willing to pay that price. I'm not willing to keep my phone on and with me all the time and provide it with fast expensive internet, just so I could say hello to some people.
You might say that I can find another service, or that I don't understand the price I'm paying. I did and I do. I'm only debating your claim that the price is cheap and putting it into general perspective.
"This can only happen because the key is on their server."
No, they can ask them for the keys even if they don't have them on their servers. And one would think that a likely response would be "We can't do that, we don't store the keys on our servers". Which is exactly what happened
It doesn't mean anything. Once you have allowed Durov to read your contact list and to store your messages on his server, you cannot control what we will do with them. Even without any laws Durov can voluntarily share this data with any government or corporation and you won't be able to prevent this.
Yes I wish people would start using it. I am more or less locked into Whatsapp because many of my friends won't change. Its annoying siting at the computer, a Whatsapp message comes in and you need to switch to the shitty tocuhscreen keyboard then back again. I can reply to a telegram message from the computer and use a proper keyboard. The context switch seems far less interrupting to me as a result.
By the way, there is Whatsapp Web where you can type with your keyboard. But it's clunky (somewhat less clunky with the Opera integration, if you use Opera), fickle and still requires you to have your phone on and with enough battery in the same wifi as the computer, which isn't always trivial.
I was in the same boat, but I decided to just make a jump. I've managed to persuade few closest friends to just try it out (half of them also ditched whatsapp altogether.
With rest I just communicate via SMS. While I do lack groups, I've found out I'm not missing out much.
Political thoughts aside, I have to say that I'm extremely impressed with Telegram's macOS client, especially after Slack. It's very elegant and iOS-y without skimping on the power-user features expected from Mac apps. What a breath of fresh air!
"To protect the data that is not covered by end-to-end encryption, Telegram uses a distributed infrastructure. Cloud chat data is stored in multiple data centers around the globe that are controlled by different legal entities spread across different jurisdictions. The relevant decryption keys are split into parts and are never kept in the same place as the data they protect. As a result, several court orders from different jurisdictions are required to force us to give up any data.
Thanks to this structure, we can ensure that no single government or block of like-minded countries can intrude on people's privacy and freedom of expression. Telegram can be forced to give up data only if an issue is grave and universal enough to pass the scrutiny of several different legal systems around the world.
To this day, we have disclosed 0 bytes of user data to third parties, including governments."
Telegram is ran by Russian oligarchs that built the local equivalent of facebook. Telegram was developed in the st. Petersburg offices of the local facebook equivalent.
Telegram developers have deliberately made encrypted conversations impossible to use, despite selling their app on it’s “encryption”. Telegram developers also choose to use pretty questionable crypto, why?
This is incorrect. The oligarchs took vk.com away from Pavel Durov (the founder of vk.com and later Telegram) by force with some help from FSB, then banished him from Russia. Both Pavel Durov and Telegram are now out of the reach of these oligarchs, and Durov has no desire to aid people who robbed and exiled him.
Oddly enough, your exilee friend Pavel has been a regular sight in St. Petersburg despite supposedly eluding the reach of the Russian authorities
https://tjournal.ru/52954-durov-back-in-ussr
>Durov has no desire to aid people who robbed and exiled him.
It seems strange to think that he'd have a choice.
And anyway, Telegram is designed in a manner which allows its operators to easily read ~99% of the conversations between users. The same is not at all true of Signal or Whatsapp. Do you think that's a coincidence?
It's cute that you link to lenta.ru as if it's undoubtedly a reliable source. Wikipedia says:
"On March 12, 2014 the owner, Alexander Mamut, fired the Editor-in-Chief Galina Timchenko and replaced her with Alexey Goreslavsky. 39 employees out of the total 84, including Director-general Yuliya Minder, lost their jobs. This includes 32 writing journalists, all photo-editors (5 people) and 6 administrators. The employees of Lenta.ru issued a statement that the purpose of the move was to install a new Editor-in-Chief directly controlled by the Kremlin and turn the website into a propaganda tool. Dunja Mijatović, the OSCE Representative on Freedom of the Media, referred to the move as a manifestation of censorship."
I'm not sure what your point is, but to me this makes it more likely that this is an article made to smear Durov than anything else considering it's literally a government mouthpiece.
At least the Russian government doesn't have many ways to meddle in my life. I would be far more worried about my own government having access to my conversations.
Putin gives the Trump administration information on activists in the US, people part of the so called resistance, that are using telegram. Pavel Durov is told to keep quiet, or he'll get to eat some polonium.
A modern COINTELPRO.
I'm not saying that's likely, however given history, it also wouldn't be surprising.
Why are you using the therm "mother Russia"? Are you trying to politicize this conversation?
People should stop worrying about whatsapp, telegream etc.
The biggest security hole are the keyboards on your phone. Especially on android. Has anyone bothers to check what data for example Swiftkey collects or potentially could?
For everyone saying Telegram/Durov will just get leaned on by Russia:
1. Durov got ousted out of his own company (VK, basically Facebook in Russia) by Putin. He then decided to live in exile in Germany
2. Telegram is incorporated in Germany (which has some of the toughest privacy laws in the world), not Russia
3. Their keys are segmented and hosted in different jurisdictions, that are picked to be likely antithetical to each other. This means an adversary has to go through multiple legal systems, and power blocs (China, EU, N. America) can’t just use their regional sway to force key collection.
If there is one thing you can dislike Telegram for, its that they rolled MTProto instead of something more default. But in terms of personel, legal and UI/UX, they’re golden.
Does Durov have family living in Russia? If he does, there's always a way to lean on him if Putin decides it could be of value to the national interests.
I think so yes, but by that logic you cannot even trust Open Whisper Systems (who provide the encryption for WhatsApp, Signal, and Facebook Messenger). I mean, with that high stakes there is big enough incentive for global temporary cooperation among some intelligence agencies to lean on Moxie (or someone else’s) family.
Edit: not meant as a whataboutism, Russia would certainly be more aggressive in doing so, and Durov is an easier target.
OWS does not provide the encryption for those services, they just designed the protocol and helped them implement it. I don't mean to be pedantic, but words matter in this circumstance.
What do you mean, "spam"? I got this (and I was happy to) because I'm subscribed to their official channels. If you don't want to receive it, maybe you should unsubscribe to their channels. Or do you mean something else?
I mean that when I signed up for Telegram I never checked any boxes agreeing to recieve marketeing materials. Since signing up for Telegram I have not joined any channels or done anything that could be interpreted as consent to recieving marketing materials. And regardless the sent me spam about this (via the same channel that they sent me a code I needed to login to a second device).
I'm very surprised by this. To me the bot that sends me the login tokens does only that. I received this because I subscribed to an official channel named Telegram News where they share this.
If they're sending news thru the login bot to people who aren't subscribed to news, that's not nice behaviour of them in my view.
After the slack irc apocalypse, we switched to matrix.org and riot with my friends. I must say, I'm really impressed by the quality of the product.
Regarding its popularity I would have expected a lower quality product. In fact the UX and the UI are superior to slack.
Furthermore while not needed, it was _very_ easy to host my own matrix server and to use bridges to access my preferred IRC channels. So my server keep track of the messages written when I'm not logged in.
Really its just great and I recommend everyone to give it a try.
Telegram is currently using 87MB of my system memory on my linux box. Furthermore, under linux there is no way to minimize signal to tray, it always stays visible in task list.
No thank you, but I refuse to use electron-based "native" apps.
I've been using signal for a while and I have successfully converted all my family and friends to using it. That includes a 70+ year old mother and father.
There have been no issues in using it's function from sending messages to video chat and everything in between.
Disclaimer: I haven't used Signal's iOS app for conversations since 2015 ... because ...
When I tried Signal, it frequently crashed, corrupted messages (requiring a reinstall of the iOS app), dropped messages, etc. As a result, all the people I persuaded to use it stopped and I currently have zero contacts on there.
I'm liking it very much and it's the only messenger client I use regularly. I made it replace the Sms default app, so either comunicate with me with sms or signal. I don't support whats app because it's close source neither telegram for the bad crypto. I don't have any problems with signal on android. Only thing missimg is more ppl using it. If someone wanta to chat me otherwise they can go with the usual classic waya like facebook, skype, email or discord. But in replacing those only with something better, so never whatsp
App or telegram.
At one point I convinced my girlfriend to install Signal on her android phone and installed it myself on my iPhone. She hated the App and refused to use it after a few days, the UI on the iPhone was slow buggy and non native feeling as well and it crashed a ton. By comparison the telegram client basically felt like a better or equally well performing WhatsApp. She had no objections whatsoever to use it.
Tried to switch last month, but messages still didn't sync between desktop and mobile. Untenable. Whatsapp syncs and has E2EE I'd your phone is on and close. Wire might be an option too.
I ended up preferring Matrix via Riot.im though...
I like Telegram and I find it one of the best messengers ever. They have true native applications, a library, there's even a decent libpurple plugin.
However, I couldn't get people to use it. It's constantly under political pressure because big bad encryption and Bad People are using it, despite the fact that lot of other messengers offer the same (including basically anything with OTR plugins, say, ICQ via Pidgin).
Telegram could and should be great, but the pressure needs to go away from it. I really wonder why Whatsapp, with it's encrypted-by-default approach is not under this level of attack. It's good I'm not into conspiracy theories.
Anyway, in the end, I ended up using it with my wife and nobody else. This made me realise I could just set up an XMPP server (Prosody in this case) next to my already existing mail server and use that with her. At least I have complete control over that.
Every app that has data security as one of its main selling points should be based in the EU. The EU is responsible for a lot of crap, but at this point they're the biggest government institution in the world that still takes protection of user data seriously.
Basing their company in Russia, they knew exactly that the government would come for the data eventually.
I tried Wire first, I really wanted to like it. It lost messages. It got it's crypto state horribly confused and couldn't read messages from one of my contacts. It maxes out at some annoyingly low number of "devices" - which includes things like different browsers, different OSes, private browsing windows opened on someone elses computer, etc. And it generally felt like a poorly built UI.
It really can’t be understated how important good UI+UX are when it comes to driving adoption of an IM app. Security/privacy is great but most people aren’t willing to use an app that’s heavy or has rough edges or is frustrating in any way.
Think of it this way: not everybody can wrap their heads around computer security and privacy on the internet, but almost everyone can tell when an app isn’t pleasant to use or has gaping holes in its feature set.
In short, if any E2EE messenger is going to come to dominate IM, its developers are going to invest just as much time and effort into its UI + UX as they do its encryption — you can’t ignore the former and wonder why the masses aren’t interested.
I too tried Wire and was really hoping it'd be good.
It was just OK instead. I haven't seen lost messages, but I've seen them taking several minutes to go through with both clients online and on the same LAN. The UI was not quite there yet too. Routine basic operations required extra taps, it felt less snappy and responsive than you'd expect it to be. So, yeah, it can be used in a pinch, but it's not yet ready as a drop-in replacement for Telegram.
It does not even have login and password so you cannot log in without using a phone. I don't understand how is that better than Skype. Skype doesn't require you to have a phone number.
Wire has a very complicated UI. My mum can't use it and most of my friends don't really understand it either.
Telegram copied WhatsApp which in turn copied SMS which is very simple and easy to understand.
I as one of those 200M users ask you kindly to please add Kosova (+383) since entry codes +386, +377 and +381 will be disabled by the august of this year.
It remains to be seen whether they'll hand over those keys, as of yet this is not the case as far as known. The consequence of not handing over the keys would be for Telegram to be banned in Russia so I assume the opposite to be true as well: if Telegram is not banned in Russia in about a week from now they will have complied with the FSB's directives. If that happens I'll be looking for an alternative, preferably something self-hosted. A self-hosted Telegram server would be the best solution here as it would make it possible to keep the best parts of Telegram - the client applications - and replace the somewhat dodgy bits - the centralised server. Add federation between servers and the end result would be more or less the same, the difference being that it would be possible to keep your data private.
So Pavel, if you're reading this, how 'bout it? Add an option for a private server for those who'd like to use Telegram in places where the powers that be are pulling tricks like in Russia. In that context it would be interesting to know how Telegram can survive in Iran, does the government there have access to anything they shouldn't?
>if Telegram is not banned in Russia in about a week from now they will have complied with the FSB's directives.
Russian here.
FSB is bluffing yet again, just like they were bluffing with youtube block. Too many people use it, too many politicans use it and even troll army based in Olgino use it.
First, they didn't give the keys and are preparing to be blocked in Russia, second, the law doesn't mean anything. Once you gave Durov your contact list and messages, he can do whatever he wants without any laws. Governments and corporations always have a lot to offer in exchange for the data.
It isn't strictly speaking better. It has pros and cons compared to other systems just like any other service. You and your messaging partners must decide what trade offs you are willing to make.
Personally Signal is nearly unusable for me (check my posting history for why, this has been coming up a lot recently). I think Telegram has the highest quality UX of any modern IM, yet I still mostly use Facebook Messenger because everyone is on it.
Definitely. Telegram wins all with their UX with a ways sometimes you wouldn't expect from an IM app. Light native apps everywhere is a very big plus too.
I'm aware it is not secure as I would like to but I'm gonna use whatever my friends use anyway.
Most people I know uses about 3 IM apps and they don't bother caring about privacy anyway (by using products of Facebook and Google, where Telegram, despite it's problems is still better choice for privacy).
I hope Telegram resolves issues everyone is concerned about.
I would argue Telegram is more of a social network than IM, especially with the channels feature. Its successful growth can be attributed to its viral/network features, and certainly not its crypto.
In terms of UX I beg to differ. Everyone I've been in contact with likes WhatsApp because it's sort of "iMessage for Android" or "Skype, only less worse" and use it mostly because their contacts are using it. The moment they have enough contacts on Telegram they just don't look back and find it a much more pleasant experience.
While bad I think it's worse that the location available through your IP is available to facebook.
Further they can guess with which contacts you work with, are good or not so good friends with. And it will be kept forever at Facebook and at companies like Cambridge Analytica.
How do you think Telegram plans to monetize? I realize they had an ICO that raised $850M, but that is not a sustainable revenue mechanism in and of itself.
Not true WhatsApp has a very anoying and jarring "floating keyboard" bug for some time now. Basically it breaks and lags for a few seconds if you quickly switch between portrait and landscape mode.
It's really weird that an app so lacking in security has a reputation for good security and privacy.
In Israel there's a huge phenomena where the illegal weed trade went telegram (they call it telegrass) people actually have to give their identity (photo of themselves holding their ID) to potential dealers so the can buy some weed.
Somehow people think it's reasonable to pass this sort of information because telegram is secured and encrypted.
I'm wondering how the ICO craze impacted Telegram MAU. Most of the ICOs focus their community management efforts on Telegram, and a lot of them have a huge number of members, more than 50k in some situations
Pavel Durov made hundreds of millions of dollars from VK and has mostly been funding it himself so far. But there was an ICO last month that raised ~$850 million.
Telegram is awful. First, it doesn't have logins and passwords so you cannot even log in without having a phone nearby. Second, it collects and uploads all of your contacts to Durov's servers. Third, all the messages are stored on the servers too so Durov can read them at his spare time.
I might be wrong, but the password you have mentioned is either a "local password" that is used to encrypt locally stored data, or a "cloud password" which is used as a second factor in 2FA.
To log in you have to either confirm your number (receive SMS or a call) or to give a code sent to your previously logged in device. There is no traditional login and password as far as I know.
What do you mean "deliberately [...] impossible to use"? Select a contact and choose "Start secret chat", wait for the keys to exchange and then the entire experience is identical to unencrypted chats.
The existence of optional secret chats used by nobody, not implemented by apps and actively discouraged by UI, seems like a particularly shit excuse for what Telegram is doing.
>Telegram is more secure than mass market messengers like WhatsApp and Line
Why are you defending these fraudsters?
>I use it, so it isn't nobody.
Don't play silly word games, you just said "I would guess that usage is definitely below 1%"
>It's implemented by the Android and iOS apps, which are the most used ones.
Ah, so it'll only fail to work 30% of the time? That's not terrible UX at all.
>How is this actively discouraging?
Why do you have to press a button to chat securely, when the "less secure" WhatsApp does not require that? Is it because of Durovs superior encryption technology?
On reading people's messages, though it may not be a popular sentiment on HN, "Administering a mail host is sort of like being a nurse; there's a brief period at the start when the thought of seeing people's privates might be vaguely titillating in a theoretical sense, but that sort of thing doesn't last long when it's up against the daily reality of shit, piss, blood, and vomit.
Now that I think about it, administering a mail host is exactly like being a nurse, only people die slightly less often."
And unlike WhatsApp you don't need to carry your phone with you all the time just to send a message to someone on desktop.
Their bot API is also really rich. I am thinking of rewriting some of the Alfred workflows I wrote in Go as Telegram bots. For example I always wanted my Web Searches workflow (https://github.com/nikitavoloboev/alfred-web-searches) be present on my phone in some way. It seems I can actually do just that and reuse the Go code I wrote already.