This is part of China's multi-pronged strategy for taking over Taiwan.
One prong is coopting Taiwanese elites, in parts by allowing them to become very wealthy through China, but only if working in the background for unification. There is no way Foxconn would have been allowed to operate large factories in China, if its founder and chairman (Terry Gou) was pro independence.
This is empire building 101. Romans offered barbarian leaders a luxurious lifestyle with floor heating and access to a wide variety of regional specialties from around the empire in exchange for loyalty to the city. Quite many took that offer, those who didn't were convinced with help of the military.
> Eschew flamebait. Don't introduce flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents.
When the US wants regime change, it usually gets it.
Ah yes, that must be why Iran is a Democratic paradise free from the IRGC and ayatollahs. Venezuela, Cuba, Ecuador, Colombia, Saudi Arabia, Libya, China, Russia, Myanmar, are all so relentlessly pro-US for the same reason I’d assume. And of course it’s not as though Russia has a history of interfering in their sphere, or sent their military to annex a part of Ukraine.
Generally speaking, I find it effective, when I disagree with someone's sources describing an event, to explicitly provide my own. This ensures that the person I'm speaking with knows what sources I find credible, and knows the version of events that I'm willing to defend as accurate.
Also, if you feel that the Wikipedia page is misrepresenting the situation, I encourage you to engage on the talk page, and update the event section to provide an alternative view point. Yes, you'll get some pushback, but you can then cite the same published sources that you find to be more reliable, making it easier for people to follow the different threads.
The events in the Ukraine during 2014 are important, and I would like to have Wikipedia be accurate on it.
I don't think Wikipedia is a good source for anything that goes against an established narrative, no matter the subject. I don't have any interest in making sure Wikipedia is up to date when there are state actors publishing their view of events on Wikipedia.
Out of curiosity, considering your teeming confidence on this, have you spoken to many Ukrainians? I lived in a country (practically) bordering them, and their sentiment regarding Russia mirrorred ours. Bit too much, we have both gotten in conflict with them, over the last decade or so...
You'd need to specify an age group since it shouldn't be too hard to find supoort for Russia from the older generation that grew up under Soviet Union and is now feeling nostalgic for their past.
No, KMT is not pro-unification. When KMT's ex-chairman Hung Hsiu-chu openly supported the unification during her presidential campaign in 2015, 91% of KMT delegates at the party congress voted for replacing her as the KMT presidential candidate.
KMT's plan is always to keep the status quo and use "unification" as a bargaining chip to get more $ from the CCP.
KMT's regular party goers and the leadership are not quite the same, as Hong Xiuzhu found out. KMT has a sizeable, but mute hardliner wing who have no joke ambitions of taking on CPC again
That's a historical constant, nothing funny about it.
I remember Ma Yingjiu (the previous KMT ROC President) asked about 'independence' in 2011. He replied that the Republic of China had been independent since it was founded in 1911. Very good reply that summarises the situation to those who do not know Chinese history.
Actually no, KMT was at war with CPC. By unification, KMT meant (notice the past tense here) taking out CPC and rule mainland themselves.
This position has changed 180 degrees in recent decades. The unification now KMT is promoting is essentially just give up and let CPC take over.
Notice KMT is a foreign political party that originates from mainland China.
Taiwanese people never had a say in that (Taiwanese social elites were slaughtered by KMT) before DPP became a real political party that's born and raised in Taiwan.
Ma Yingjiu's statement was to maintain KMT's legitimacy as a party in Taiwan, that is, through a country named ROC.
However, for Taiwanese. Our country is called Taiwan. And that's how we recognise ourselves long before 1911.
This is brilliantly targeted then since the Chinese officially abandoned Mazu during the Cultural Revolution. Not that Guo could run for China President, anyways.
So do educate us with facts. Because, you know, many of us don't think your position is correct, given what we think we know of history and politics. You may in fact know more, but merely stating the claim does nothing. It neither educates nor persuades - it merely argues.
The vast, vast majority of them are ethnic Chinese.
The thing to realise is that this is really a divide and conquer game by the West.
The West has always recognised that Taiwan is a part of China. Not least of course when the recognised government of China was the ROC government.
Now the West recognises the PRC as the government of China, but this means that trying to stroke an 'independentist' sentiment in Taiwan becomes a tactic to weaken them.
America, for one, recognizes Taiwan as an independent country ("province") and has enough weight that they can do that. Other countries, especially those in Europe, are not big enough to be able to do so and still maintain a trade relationship with China, and default to the choice that makes economical sense.
Taiwan is not in China. The democratic government in Taiwan does not consider itself to be under the sway of the more powerful, richer country that they lost a civil war to.
dude, NO IT'S NOT.
and also please don't bring this sensitive political topic to a technical-based forum.
It's like arguing Israel and Palestine, or who should own Kashmir
> Well, Taiwan is in China. What it is not is in the PRC. Do you mean the PRC's strategy to finish the job? Or do you not know about China?
> The reality is that the KMT will never agree to surrender to the Communist Party.
I do not think you know what you are saying.
Taiwan is nearby mainland China. It has, at times, been claimed and occupied by the current governments of China and Japan . China claims it because it's strategically important (it's also an ego thing), and the people of Taiwan, who are more Japanese than Chinese (thanks, ethnic cleansing!) are not keen to join the PRC (the communistic current governing party in China). The people of Taiwan have recognized and declared allegiance to the ROC (the Republic of China, an attempt at democratic government) which was more or less ended when the Communist Party lost, threw a temper tantrum, and raised an insurrection. The ROC was on its way to becoming a proper Democratic country when it failed to civil war (because the Communists didn't want to recognize that they'd lost). Taiwan has essentially declared allegiance to the "rest of China" on the condition that the Republic of China, a democracy, is the governing power.
During the Communist takeover, political refugees went to Taiwan, and brought their democratic ideals along with them, which have grown and flourished- today, Taiwan is a Parliamentary democracy with fist-fights in Parliament. They're government is healthy, and they want to stay that way.
The issue here is that the Foxxcon corp. has probably been subsidized by China at some point, directly leading to profit for the CEO, who will then want to edge closer to Taiwan. This is very dangerous, and I worry that if he gets elected, he may pull Taiwan, as we know it, to the edge of extinction.
This is an alt account for hopefully obvious reasons.
I also found this statement bizzare, but after some thinking it kind of makes sense, in a way. It depends on how you define “China”. Taiwan keeps a lot of things from the olden days, but that China is very, very different from the one today (thanks to the Cultrual Revolution). Japan also gets to keep much of the same China heritage, making Taiwan more similar to Japan culturally than to China today. CCP makes everything wierd.
The only way that Taiwan will be in China in the near future will be if there is a conquering war from China invading Taiwan, or a long period of attrition where China wears down the west and succeeds in putting sycophantic leaders in charge of Taiwan who weaken her military. My background is I'm an american who went to college and learned about history.
> The only way that Taiwan will be in China in the near future will be if there is a conquering war from China invading Taiwan, or a long period of attrition where China wears down the west and succeeds in putting sycophantic leaders in charge of Taiwan who weaken her military. [emphasis added]
Sycophantic leaders are really bad, sympathetic leaders are one of the first steps to getting there. That's part of why I'm concerned about this Foxconn (I think I mispelled it earlier) guy- he seems like an early stage in this.
I think we're both on the same page, it's the Not A Paid Shill guy that I'm worried about.
Strange women, lying in ponds, distributing presidential candidacy advice is no basis for a system of government.
On a more serious note, can any readers from ROC or anyone who's more in touch with the situation there give an insight into whether he stands a chance given (a) the sea goddess angle, and (b) the apparently PRC-friendly platform?
When translated into English the sea goddess thing can be really weird, but Ma Zhu is not really a sea goddess. She's more like a folk symbol combined with a patron/saint of the sea and a semi-lifestyle religion. With Taiwan being an island, the patron saint of the sea is an immensely important part of the culture.
She is widely known and revered in all of Taiwan. When you go to a Taiwanese family and say "Mazhu bao yo" (Mazu bless you) - it's generally well received even if the people don't believe in Taoism or natural / personified deities.
The idea that Gou says "Mazu wanted me to do it" is more like saying to a Catholic that Mother Teresa inspired you to visit India and start a non-profit agency to help the people there.
Hopefully the analogy holds for people who are not familiar with the culture there.
Was just talking with a friend about this -- we agreed that if this were an American businessman getting the blessing and will of the Christian God from a priest or a bishop, we probably wouldn't think too much of it.
The whole "freedom of religion" thing over here is supposed to keep such nonscientific thinking allowable, but outward religious affiliation (or endorsement) for political actors usually only strengthens the part of the fanbase that condones such thinking. This is usually a significant portion for "conservative" actors who tend to pander to that same set of moral sensibilities and nonscientific rhetoric, since it keeps them popular amongst that portion of their constituency (e.g. any religious statement Cruz or Trump ever made)
However, generally a lack of vocal endorsement of a particular religion is seen as a plus for candidates since it's not directly controversial, except for with religious voters who can't possibly fathom how someone could disagree with them on the topic.
Please don't come up with such assertions, even Taiwanese don't know the exact answers for your statements mentioned above.
Especially (2), it's like saying either parties in U.S. didn't do anything, which will raise a HUGE debate here on HN
being a Taiwanese, I feel (2) and (3) are actually the perception people have from exposure to China-originated fake news that intents to obscure current Taiwanese government's efforts.
There is no point arguing with me -- I'm pretty sure you watch those politics talk shows. Branding all of them as "fake news" is not helpful.
If you disagree, you'd better refute me with facts. Tell us what achievements (political, economical) DPP had in the past three years; show us the growth in the past two decades.
As for political achievements, things like (1)having a female president (2)openly supports LGBTQ rights (3)Taiwan's recognition from other like-minded democratic counties has never been stronger since 1979. If these are not political achievements, I don't know what is.
As for 22k, low income for young generation is a real (global) issue, which DPP is fighting hard to solve. Having a pro-China, conservation populist figure like Gou is only going the worsen the problem of distribution of wealth.
As Taiwanese, from what I observed, given the level of populism that's going on in the country, the chance of him being elected next year is highly probable. This is a very very very serious threat to Taiwan's effort to counter China's invasive actions.
Also even though Mazu is super big in Taiwan, Taiwanese are generally seeing this only as a political declaration. (Religion in Taiwan is more of a spiritual guidance than an actual superior being that dictates people lives.)
Actually PRC is very pro-populism. It's an easy way to manipulate the public. False information combines with some provoking words, you get Chinese communists' means of control.
For certain strains in certain context sure, but I’m still confused why a Taiwanese populist would side with CPC.
Sure, you could naïvely buy into the whole reunification thing, but it’s not like Beijing wouldn’t assert complete control. Just look at Hong Kong, or the fact that the mainland has a couple of orders of magnitude more of... everything.
As he's a "mainlander" (外省人, i.e. at least one parent came over with Chiang Kai-shek following the 1949 loss to the Chinese Communist Party in the Chinese Civil War）the Mazu reference seems to be something meant to appeal to Taiwanese (本省人) voters, kind of like a presidential candidate in the U.S. claiming strong local ties when traveling to different regions where that plays well. Yes, he's religious, and he speaks Taiwanese, but I wouldn't assume a huge number of Taiwanese people will back him for those reasons alone.
If Gou has real support from the KMT -- no easy thing, considering he hasn't been heavily active in local politics AFAIK -- he might get some wind in his sails, particularly if he sticks with the practical themes relating to cross-strait trade and economic growth. He understands that very, very well.
If he doesn't have the right political network in place, though, he's going to piss off a lot of KMT people and likely to relegated to the margins -- or siphon off a lot of blue supporters for an indie run, which will lead to the same type of situation the U.S. Republican party had back in the 90s with Ross Perot.
It is depressing to me to think how much of the billions that went to Foxconn, as subsidies for an ongoingly-debated screen plant in Wisconsin, ultimately was a source of personal funding for this person's political campaign.
I could have lived the rest of my life in blissful ignorance of that possibility. Just gets my blood back up over how much Walker and his cronies let those guys fleece us for.
Nope, nope, nope... politicians do not get to pass off responsibility for their actions simply because a plurality of denizens in a geographic area voted them into office.
Is it just me or are others deeply disturbed by his correspondence with imaginary sea monsters? I am perplexed by the political appeal of claiming affiliation with imaginary power-symbols like this.... but it seems to appeal to voters nearly everywhere even in this day and age.
Once you get past the fictional nature of the deities themselves, what you're left with is the cult, the physical and financial network of the religion and its dogma. Those can be inconsequential in the greater political and cultural narrative, or a powerful force to shape politics and culture to its own ends.
That's totally fine - if my next razor was the Cthulhu Aeons, I'd be more inclined to purchase it. I just don't know if I'd elect a leader based upon their imaginary sea friend.
Well, we did have a fair number of leaders in the West claiming they went for office due to divine inspiration (i.e. George W. Bush), so, it's weird yes, but just as weird as invoking some monotheistic God.
Doesn't that seem a little like you're imposing your own belief system onto them? I get it, this guy doesn't seem particularly Christian, but Bush seems like he could have very well been a fervent believer.
...the Overton window is sliding to a place where we'll soon see the POTUS tweet about his dreams of Cthulhu and it will not even seem weird anymore :P
While such dreams would explain a lot about this presidency, I think you underestimate the velocity with which the Overton Window has already gleefully escaped the Earth's atmosphere. Remember the flying water tankers tweet from two days ago? Nobody else does either.
That was funny :) If I were American it would have been less funny though.
There was another more famous leader that thought of himself as talented at multiple things: like painting... and architecture/construction. And, in a quirk of fate, being bad at the latter actually saved his life once (unfortunately).
Unfortunately I don't see this cult of ignorance dissolving within our lifetimes.
Seemingly no amount of factual data can counter human "feelings". Until then, politics will continue trying to convert the thoughtless masses into votes.
When you are so entrenched in China and so beholden to the party, that even the mere idea of decamping is dangerous to entertain, how good can he dance with shackles on?
FYI for those who didn't familiar with Taiwan culture: Saying that you're going to do something because some god/goddess tells you to do so in your dream is a pretty common excuse in ancient Taiwan. So it makes sense as elder population is probably Gou's target audience.
But of course, it looks F* *KING RIDICULOUS to younger generations.
One prong is coopting Taiwanese elites, in parts by allowing them to become very wealthy through China, but only if working in the background for unification. There is no way Foxconn would have been allowed to operate large factories in China, if its founder and chairman (Terry Gou) was pro independence.