The MBP is not great bang-to-buck. I bought one 4 years ago (PowerBook, then) and it ended up costing about $3,000. The MacBook costs just over 1/3 that. 1 year ago, I bought a MacBook to replace the failing MBP, and the difference was incredible: the regular MacBook well-exceeded everything about the MBP. I could buy a new MacBook every year (if I needed to) and it would cost the same as buying a MBP every 3 years, and that's if we don't factor in resale.
Given that the poster is using the system to learn to program, I doubt he needs the MBP. The MB should more than suit that need.
You're talking entirely about a different computer and a different time. A new Macbook Pro (such as one he might buy) comes with a much better operating system, can run Windows programs side by side, has the same processor and graphics card as leading PC counterparts, does not cost $3,000 ($1599 with Student Developer discount), has an LED Glossy option versus fluorescent matte, has more mac native apps and dev tools than ever, gives many more reasons to use it for programming like for the iPhone, as well as opportunities to create web apps in ROR, Django, and other web frameworks that did not exist at the time that now need to be tested on a Mac since it also happens to have much greater marketshare. All of this means that his computer might last for more years than before, since the hardware is already top of the line compared not just to mac machines released a year prior, but to high end pc laptops, as well, which means he might as well get the MacBook Pro.
> You're talking entirely about a different computer and a different time
I know, just as it'll change again in the next 3 years.
> A new Macbook Pro (such as one he might buy) comes with...
Most of these things come with a standard MacBook, too, so why not buy a MacBook?
Some of the things that MacBook doesn't have that the MBP does:
> $1599 with Student Developer discount
Actually, it's $1799, but that doesn't factor in taxes, which bring it to about retail, or $2000, and that's without any configuration options (the one I bought, spec'ed out again, is still $3000).
(By the way, If you're looking to buy a Mac, look at the Amazon discount over Apple's store: with free shipping and no taxes, it's almost always cheaper.)
> LED Glossy options versus fluorescent matte
True.
> All of this means that his computer might last for more years than before, since the hardware is already top of the line compared not just to mac machines released a year prior, but to high end pc laptops, as well
I guess it's whether or not you're willing to make that bet or not.
> which means he might as well get the MacBook Pro.
Or, he could save a lot of money, get an equivalent machine for his needs, and buy a new one every year and still not spend as much.
False. The matte screen is LED and its unclear from the specs whether the glossy is LED or fluorescent.
From apple.com:
"15.4-inch (diagonal) antiglare widescreen TFT LED backlit display with support for millions of colors; optional glossy widescreen display"
You can still get a MacBook for half that, which has everything else you mentioned, so why not get a MacBook and upgrade twice as often? (With resale value, you'll be way on top.)
I calculate $1678 after taxes, a savings of $421. I thought the same thing as you and bought a MacBook for $999 but returned it because it was slower, dimmer, smaller, and more mirror-like than my glossy MacBook Pro while weighing the same and looking like a children's toy.
What ultimately caused me to return it was trying to run a 3D plugin of a scene in a drawing program. It was unbelievably slow, while I remembered how well a Dell m1330 ran, which has the same integrated video chipset, Intel's X3100. I researched that either Apple or Intel had crappy video drivers on the Mac for that chipset, which meant it was already behind the times out of the box, never mind in two years.
And with the discount, the MacBook Pro might even be sold for a profit after 3-6 months in the worst case scenario (since including taxes it's worth $2,100), but the same MacBook at either Student Developer or Student price would likely be sold for a loss.
I'll agree with that. I own a MacBook Pro and although it has some nice features (larger screen, better video card, aluminum finish...) it's not totally worth the difference in price, if you're looking for an economy system.
With that said, I'll also recommend that you get a ThinkPad instead of a Mac. They're time- and battle-tested machines, and work well. The Mac may seem to have less problems, but both usually have about the same amounts of problems, but just of some different natures.
I like the Mac, and I can live with Windows. Both are good machines, and you have to try both to see which one you like better.
Even better is a Thinkpad running some flavor of GNU/Linux. They're well supported because well, frankly, they're incredible machines and hackers everywhere love them.
Back to the original Question: IMHO Thinkpads are very good and especially reliable Notebooks, but they also aren't cheap. When getting a Thinkpad then a T-Model most of the others don't differ that much from Notebooks sold by HP or Dell.
Our company has been using ThinkPads for years. In the past year standard issue has been T60p and T61p — and they're awful.
Crappy display drivers, a tendency to shut down when you plug them in or dock them, etc. etc.
We're switching to HPs now.
Me, I'm on my second MBP in 3 years and I'm happy. Another friend of mine just replaced his MacBook with a MBP, because it just wasn't quite keeping up.
I have a Thinkpad X41 Tablet that I really like. It was part of the very last product cycle to be branded IBM. Lots of people say that quality has gone downhill since then.
I owned a T42 and now a T61p. Even tough the build quality hasn't improved speaking of it having gone downhill is drastically exaggerated. The quality is comparable between the two, the nice little ideas still exist (like the keyboard light etc.) the only real change I saw was that i had to loosen 4 screws to extend the memory instead of four :-)
But one person probably isn't truly a reference... So more references are needed.
I agree wholeheartedly. Unless you need to do serious 3D work, the Pro is overkill. For everyday use, the plain-Jane MacBook is quite adequate. True, the hardware isn't quite a nice as ThinkPads of yore, and I loathe the glossy screen, but these are really my only complaints.
Sorry, I said "PowerBook, then". And in 4 years from now it may hold some other moniker.
My basic point was that if technology continues to change, the best bang for your buck is rarely the higher end. Only buy the high end if you need it and you're milking it for all it's worth.
If you're optimizing for the best bang-for-your-buck, then I agree. But if you spend all day working on a computer or depend on using a computer to make your living, I think it is very easy to justify buying highend equipment. $2.5k vs. $1.5k is not a very significant difference if it is amortized over 8 hours per day * 300 days per year.
Given that the poster is using the system to learn to program, I doubt he needs the MBP. The MB should more than suit that need.